'Forgotten Heroes, Aborigines at War'

May Owen: The book Forgotten Heroes, was first published in 1993, and it’s about all those Aboriginal people in Victoria, who served in the Wars, and when, they returned from the war, from the earlier wars, they weren’t recognised, they weren’t in, they weren’t entitled to the same benefits of other Australian soldiers, of acquiring land, or housing, but, the Vietnam, by the time the Vietnam War came, it was different.

In this program, two sons of Aboriginal returned servicemen speak about their fathers, who are both featured in Forgotten Heroes. The second is Adam Muir, speaking about his father, Leo Max Muir, and the first is Trevor Edwards, talking about his father, Bill Edwards.

Renee Owens: Trevor’s father, Bill, Edwards, served in New Guinea during World War II. Kevin was surprised to read about the hardships his dad experienced in the War, because his dad hasn’t talked about, it much.

Trevor Edwards: Yes, in regards, you know, Dad not talking about the War very much, I think it’s probably contributed to, you know, coming back, to working pretty hard, and raising a family, and not sort of having time to sort of sit down and talk about it, but, and I guess also, being so young, going to war, I think that he was only 16 when he enlisted.

I guess going back in those days there was not much else around sort of thing, that you’d sort of give a, stability in lifestyle sort of thing but I didn’t think, I don’t think they realised what they were letting themselves in for, in the end, but given that, that he’s, you know, being joined it so young, the War, I guess for most of the returned soldiers had, and had given up a lot of their youth, so given that I think, you know, there’s, well a lot of the returned soldiers obviously, well I guess and from, I know from Dad’s perspective I think there’s a fair bit of bitterness, in regards to it.

So you know that’s, this is probably why that this has very little, is said about it, and it’s something that I feel that returned soldiers who, they’re un, well, unsung heroes as such, oh just the fact of going to war to fight for their families and country and returning, so I think that, in itself, is a magnificent achievement.

Renee Owens: That was Trevor Edwards, talking about his father, World War II veteran, Bill Edwards. Our second speaker is Adam Muir.

Adam Muir: My name is Adam Muir. I am the son of Leo Maxwell Muir. His story, among many others, is included in the book, forgotten Heroes, Aborigines at War, from the Somme, to Vietnam, this is his story.

Leo Maxwell Muir served in Vietnam. The men who went to Vietnam, talk of their experiences with reluctance, if at all. It is hard to get to the heart of a man, or the story of his war, but Margaret, Leo’s wife of 17 years, gave us documents. She wanted Leo’s story included, in this book.

Leo’s eulogy said he was a family man, his veteran friends said he was a good soldier, older by 10 years than most of the Australians in Vietnam. He was a mentor, a drinker, the trickster, with a smile, who loved the good times, loved life, and brought cheer to weary soldiers.

Of his tour of duty the eulogy said: “Leo was instrumental in establishing the Geelong Vietnam Association, he was a soldier prepared to pay the ultimate price for his beloved Australia”. In 1979 Leo was studying, and was asked to submit an English assignment, and self profile. With permission from Margaret Muir, we reproduce an edited version of that profile, it is the story of the man behind Leo Muir, the soldier.

[reads]

“I was born, on the 17th of June, 1945, to William and Midge Muir, the oldest child in a family of six. As an Aboriginal youngster, I lived as a fringe dweller on the outskirts of Mooroopna, by the banks of the Goulburn River, in a tin humpy, like so many of my people at that time. It seemed that most Aboriginal people were unskilled workers in white society, and were employed throughout the area as pickers in orchards, or in tomato or pea paddocks. To most this was a way of life, and survival, but I vowed in later years that this was not for me.

With my grandparents we moved into the township, and lived in a Commission house for most of my state school days. This was after living in converted stables and barns, around the area. At that time this did not seem degrading to me, as this was a way of life and what, one made the best of what one had.

I learned to read, write, and played sport. Sport was to become my greatest asset, and created many avenues of social intercourse, in white society. Getting to know whites, was in itself an education, as I had to learn tolerance, and humility, if I wanted to better myself. Out of the Army, and back into my trade, I moved from factory to factory, gaining experience, four years later I married.

Within the first 12 months of marriage, aged 27, I suffered a heart attack. It was at this time I decided there was no future for me in Melbourne, with my wife and young son I moved to Geelong, where with the assistance of a War Service loan we acquired our own home.

I became discontented with my employment, I’d been a panel beater for 15 years, and I longed to try some other field, more academic studies, and two years later I became a fully qualified trade instructor, teaching apprentice panel beaters at Geelong East Technical School.

May Owen: Leo concluded his report saying: “It seems one never stops learning, memoirs perhaps, but when one looks back, it has been a pretty interesting life, with never a dull moment”.

May Owen:He was always striving, striving to better himself, and he always saw education as the tool, as well as his sporting abilities, and achievements, it was actually his sporting abilities that got him, noticed and recognised, and so even when he was in the Army he was a physical instructor, for the soldiers in doing their game, their exercises.

But he never talked about what he did, there, as many of those Vietnam veterans, they don’t talk about it, they, well they talk to each other, but they don’t talk to anybody else, outside their own circles, you’re talking about his good mates, and the friendships that he had, so but he didn’t talk about the War, itself but he, in what he has, what he did do, as a result of Vietnam, and so he had, a long, life long friendships, established his long, lifetime friendships.

When he came back, he fitted in quite well, because he fitted in well before he went away, but he wanted to move, he came to Geelong, because his best mate was here, this is Laurie, his best mate was here, and the plan was they could buy a home, with the War Service loan, so he sort of moved on from there, and then, this is where he decided he wanted, he still wanted to have some more education, and he did two years’ training, so that he could teach his trade, in panel beating, at the East Geelong Tech he taught, young fellas to be panel beaters.

He formed this friendship in Geelong, with other Vietnam veterans, and they… and Leo was one of the foundation members, of the Geelong Veterans, Vietnam Veterans’ Association, in which there was about a dozen of them at the time, and today there’s something like, 300, 300 of them.

And of course when he died, unexpectedly, at 42, the funeral was one of the, it was probably the biggest I’ve been to, but Geelong does have, from time to time, very big funerals, so there would have been hundreds of people there, and it sort of said a lot for the big man, he was a big man, he had a big voice, a big personality, and when he was, when the funeral procession moved from, well, the centre, it went past his, the high school that he taught at, and there’s this, the streets were lined with, there’s an honour-guard, on both sides of the roads with all the secondary school students, and there were even police on the corners, had to stop the traffic, for Leo to pass by, so we often think that: “Gee, he would have been chuffed to know that the police were on the corners, directing traffic, to let him go past, so yes, but he’s, so he’s still remembered, you know, though we talk about the forgotten heroes, and those others in War, and sometimes they’re really they’re, some Vietnam Vets were, forgotten; he was part of the big welcome home procession in Sydney, years later, when they decide to recognise the Vets, and that was a, one of the highlights that he was able to go to Sydney, and meet up with a lot of vets he hadn’t seen for a long time, but mm, so it’s a good story.

'Ambon, Island of Mist'

Now the programme that you’re going to hear today, is of a story of a battalion of Australian soldiers, who were imprisoned on the island of Ambon, by the Japanese forces, during the Second World War. For three and a half years they were completely cut off from the rest of the world, and endured starvation, beatings, executions, and acts of brutality, which have been described as being amongst one of the worst chapters of the Pacific War. Only a third of the soldiers lived to return home.

Courtney was one of those soldiers, who came home, and as a community we should be very proud, and grateful, that he’s written the story of his battalion, the 2nd 21st, also known as Gull Force, and his book is called “Ambon, Island of Mist”. In the preface to the book, Courtney explains that he was motivated to write the book because many relatives and friends had been denied knowledge regarding the circumstances in which their loved ones had died. There had been some spasmodic information, which had apparently appeared over the years, but he felt this was often distorted, and not true to the facts.

Courtney Harrison: Actually, we where we were in, in Australia for about 12 or 18 months before we were moved and, but units were being formed, new units were being formed, and they were going away overseas, to the , Egypt, and different places, and here we were, still stuck around, in Bonegilla actually, and then, we were, one morning we were sent by train and we finished up in, through Adelaide, and across central Australia, and finished up in Darwin, and we were up there for another about eight months, I think it was. (laugh)

Gwlad McLachlan: The 2nd 21st Battalion arrived in Darwin, following a difficult journey by rail and road, through central Australia, they were part of the 23rd Infantry Brigade, which had been formed in 1940 under Brigadier Lind, to defend the Northern Territory against possible attack by the Japanese.

Courtney Harrison: Yes, we didn’t know until we got to Ambon, that that’s what we were always headed for, we were meant to go there, that was the Army’s arrangements that they’d made.

Gwlad McLachlan: At the time questions were certainly raised about the inadequacies of the planned defence force, and Lieutenant Colonel Roach, who was in charge of the battalion, raised these critical issues. And these are discussed in great detail, in Courtney’s book, and the following extracts from Ambon, are read by Harold Beamsley.

Harold Beamsley: “Signal was sent by Roach, to AHQ on the 24th of December, stating that his previous messages had not been acknowledged, and that, quote: ‘Present combined Army forces, inadequate hold vital localities, more than day or two, against determined attack, from more than one direction simultaneously.

In a previous letter to Major Scott on the 13th of December, Roach had said that there had been insufficient reconnaissance, he did not have enough anti-tank guns, and no field guns, and had asked for a troop of 25-pounders, two more anti-tank troops, six more mortars, anti-aircraft guns, two more infantry companies, and additional automatic weapons, if you can spare them”;

The same day Gull Force disembarked, the 17th of December, Roach wrote another letter to Scott, again listing the deficiencies in arms and equipment, and added: ‘Health and morale good’; six days later, he sent a signal to AHQ in Melbourne, stating it was imperative to have at once all those items mentioned previously, in Para K, None of his requests were acknowledged, and none of the items asked for had arrived.

At Army headquarters in Melbourne Major W.J. Scott had been promoted to rank of Lieutenant Colonel, and appointed as general staff officer, attending to the affairs of Gull Force.

In a letter to Scott on the 1st of January, Roach gave his true feelings, when he wrote: ‘I find it difficult to overcome a feeling of disgust, and more than a little concern, at the way in which we have been seemingly dumped, at this outpost position, without any instructions whatever, and with so far, a flat refusal to consider any increase in firepower, and the number of troops, as it seems possible that this force will be overwhelmed, if present enemy tactics are pursued.

I do feel it is high time heroics were abandoned, in favour of realities, so that it might be that, if this letter be brought under notice, it will put a stop to avoidable catastrophes’. Senior officers in Melbourne were unmoved.

On the 15th of January, Roach received a signal that Scott was in Darwin, and would take over command of Gull Force. Lieutenant Colonel Roach, M.C., having reported back at AHQ Melbourne, was dismissed from further active service, and returned to civilian life within one week, he was then 48 years of age”.

Courtney Harrison: What happened, they bombed Pearl Harbour, the Japanese Force, and they, within a week they came down south, and unfortunately came to Ambon, thinking that there was a, troops down there, you know, camped, camped, there, but there was only one battalion, all the others had dispersed in all different islands, and they only took a matter of two days to take us prisoners, and we were always, overtaken by numbers, there was a, the whole division of them, and there was only one battalion of us.

Gwlad McLachlan: Courtney, in the book, early on in the book, you mentioned a friend of yours, Bill Doolan, do you want to say about Bill?

Courtney Harrison: Oh yes. Yes. Oh well, it was a fact that he was going to take them on, on his own (laugh), poor Bill, and we called lying in at night it when I was supposed to go and pick him up, well or we were in Ambon itself, actually, on leave at night and at about 10 to six at night we were told that we had to go straight back, to our positions and to take our positions where we were supposed to go up on the hill.

When we got there Bill wouldn’t come, and he said to me, that he’s not going, he’s going to do them over himself with a bloody bike-chain, he says (laugh).

After the, we were taken prisoners there, there we were then taken to a school, which was in Ambon itself, in the township, when we got back there, there were no tents, they’d all gone, and one, all my personal gear was missing, of course, and in there and I, all the tins of fruit from Shepparton, for, SPC peaches, and pears, and all that, they had the tops of the tins punctured and they’d, drinking the syrup out of them and thrown the tins away with all the fruit in it, and they were all just lying there, rotting.

Anyhow, as we went back on, and went to see if there were any, the camp were any, if any things was left there, and as I came down, back down the path, the roadway, the side of the roadway, I noticed these, this body that was lying there, and of course it turned out to be poor old Bill. So, we went back the following day and buried him.

Gwlad McLachlan: Australian, and Dutch forces, were overwhelmed by the Japanese invaders, and in chapter four of his book, which is titled “The Laha Story”, Courtney wrote: “All of the Gull Force troops at Laha knew it was inevitable, that the end of the fighting would come soon, and they would be trapped, and eventually cut off by the Japanese”. This is of course what happened, and in chapter five Courtney takes up the story of the time, as prisoners of war. And initially, apparently, conditions were reasonable.

Courtney Harrison: Yes, oh the Japanese were all busy, they were organising themselves, you see, they had to move on, with all these troops they had, boatloads of them, and they had to move them on and the, and they were too busy to worry about us, so we had nothing to do, we didn’t even get works or anything for about a month or more, easily that long.

Unfortunately yes the band was split up, when we were all got there, the half of the band were on at Laha, the other side of the island, and we lost a lot of them; the tragedy of Laha story of course, is in the book, where they all were beheaded with, because they had no troops to look after them, they, and all their troops were busy, so they beheaded them all. One of the worst prison camps in the whole of, in the whole Japanese affair.

Gwlad McLachlan: The last part of Courtney’s book, is titled “The Hainan Story”, and it tells the story, of the sick prisoners of war, who were taken from the island of Ambon, many miles north, to Hainan Island, and Courtney was one of these prisoners.

Courtney Harrison: 248 of us, I think there were, taken over in this old Japanese, rusty old ship, and we finished up in Hainan, it was a, it was a dusty hole of a place, like it was built on a swamp, it was all swampy round the area, of course a big, quite a big island actually, but we are now on the worst end of it! (laugh)

Gwlad McLachlan: Yes, there are some very sad drawings in you book, Courtney, that you’ve done yourself.

Courtney Harrison: Mm.

Gwlad McLachlan: And describing the shocking conditions, could you tell me about them?

Courtney Harrison: Yes, oh well, they depicted exactly what happened in the camp, the different things that happened, you know, where we used to get the rats and we used to get the, down where the kitchen was, they had a few drains coming out of there, covered-in drains, and we’d go down there of a night and pour boiling water down and catch the rats as they come out, we’d bang ‘em, and catch them, and eat them, and we soon got rid of those, there were, didn’t have too many of those; snakes, and that we, big snakes, we waited for three weeks for a snake, about eight foot long come out of a tree! (laugh) And we got him, and chopped him up for the soup! (laugh) Things like that, snails, and all that sort of thing we were eating, anything that’s not poisonous you can eat, you see, it doesn’t matter what it is, as long as it’s not poisonous.

Gwlad McLachlan: And what about Berri-Berri, was that a big problem?

Courtney Harrison: Yes, oh well we soon got the Berri-Berri, for not having vitamin B tablets, which they should have given you, but they didn’t, and oh, yes, Berri-Berri is caused by the heart becoming weaker, through the lack of food, and vitamin B, in particular, because the heart becomes that weak that it can’t pump the body fluids away, and it gathers, naturally, in the furthest parts from the, of the body, from the heart, and mainly the feet, and legs, and then the face, and so on, and it works like that.

So, as time went by, of course, we more than, lost more men, they’d die overnight, there could be a party of six of us sitting down, tonight, talking in a ring, and by tomorrow night there might be four of us, die, just so, just, died. Oh yes there’s no control, though, you didn’t know when it was going to happen.

Gwlad McLachlan: Yes, what happened, to the men that died, were they buried, in mass graves, or what happened?

Courtney Harrison: Yes. Well they all were, stitched up in blankets, we could, we ran out of timber of course for building coffins or any things like that but, but they were all stitched up in blankets, and interred that way.

Gwlad McLachlan: And, the graves on Ambon now, the graves of those men, well are the, oh and the mass graves, or individual graves of the men, what’s the sort of situation there, with that?

Courtney Harrison: Yes, that’s right, the, if they, if the names of the bodies that were known, that they were buried and with their name attached, on the grave, itself, but the rest was just buried as unknown, because they couldn’t tell and for, who was who.

Gwlad McLachlan: Now, with the cessation of hostilities, what was the first inkling that you had, that the War might be going to end?

Courtney Harrison: Oh, (laugh) oh that was a, story and a half, that was, nobody knew what was, and they had bets on it, they were betting, when it would end and so on like that, but oh they used to by the behaviour, of the Japanese, there was a bit of an indication, and one day the work parties stopped, they never, they shut the gates, and that was the end of the work, no works, any more, we thought: “Well when this’s going to towards, getting towards the end, or something was going to happen”, but the for, and two aeroplanes come over and one of them was an American, and other was a Japanese Zero fight, oh plane, and they dropped leaflets, from, which told us that the War was over, actually, or was, that they were coming to an end, they stopped the hostilities, oh, that was about it.

Gwlad McLachlan: So what was the, when those leaflets fell, was there a dramatic change took place, or what happened?

Courtney Harrison: Yes, well all of these Japanese soldiers were firing their rifles, you know, their rifles, and they were carrying sticks and that, and they were all running round the huts, with these rifles, they still wouldn’t put them down or anything, yes, and we had them guarding us for quite some time after that, for a quite a number of weeks.

Gwlad McLachlan: And was there still a concern that you might be killed, before the allies arrived?

Courtney Harrison: Well I, yes, possibly, the matter of dying, you see, because we were so low in health, that any time, where any one that could died, but another, well another week, or 10 days there would be very few of us that were ever left alive, I think we, just got out in time.

'Australian Women's Land Army Interview'

GWlad McLachlan: My name’s Gwlad McLachlan, and I’ll be presenting a programme about the role of women, here, during the War.

After talking with a number of people, it became clear that there were many women who played vital roles during the War, but in a lot of respects were unrecognised, in lots of ways, for their contributions, and one such group, I believe, was the Australian Women’s Land Army.

During the War many women felt a strong desire to help their country, in this time of need, a lot of women were too young to be able to get into the Women’s Auxiliary Services, and so many of these women, as young as 16, joined up. A lot of them were straight from the city, with little knowledge or understanding of the land, many were sent to quite isolated areas, where they were engaged in tedious and arduous work, and up until this point these women have never been recognised, for their services during World War II, and that’s what, we’re going to learn about today, because we’re going to hear from women who served with the Women’s Land Army, and the women we’re going to hear from are Kit Brown, Mary White, Mary Low, Elaine Peters, and Vi Malcolm.

Elaine Peters: I’m Elaine Peters, and my maiden name was Ridgewell, and I joined the Land Army in September, 1942, my first work was at Strathkellar, on flax, and then I moved down to Port Arlington, picking peas, the next move was to Orbost, and that was a variety of jobs there, but mostly picking beans, beetroot, and a variety of work there.

Gwlad McLachlan: Tell me about the flax, I’m really interested in how that was for you?

Elaine Peters: Oh, well I had two or three flax jobs, one at Strathkellar, and then I had some time at Riddells Creek, too, yes it was yes quite good, you know, they spread the flax out on the ground and you would go along with these long poles, and turn the flax over, that was called a retting process, and then it was tied in bundles, and sent to the flax mill. But it was lovely working on the orchards, the orchards were beautiful work, the atmosphere of the trees, you know, and especially the orange orchard, and the smell of those oranges, at early morning, was beautiful, and you know you felt like you were really, you could, and doing something.

Vi Malcolm: I’m Vi Malcolm was Vi Reeves, and I joined the Land Army in October, ’42, I had a week at Werribee, and I used to have to harness Dancer, the horse, and go into the station to pick up the girls that were coming out, and then they sent me down to Bellarine with 23 other girls, team, and we got our room ready, in the house that we were all going to live in, we filled the palliasses and scrubbed the floors, then the boss came down and he said: “I want a girl to milk the cows”, and I said: “No, I’m not milking a cow” and he said: “Yes, you’re going to do it, girl”, so I had to go up and do it, and I hadn’t milked a cow since I was nine, and we used to get up at four o’clock in the morning, and get the cows in, there’d be a hundred cows to milk, no electricity, hand-turned motor, and then, when the milking was finished and loaded up onto the wagon, that were the, can, truck that came out, we used to go out in the paddock and chop hay, potatoes, or pick peas, or weed onions, or whatever, ‘til milking time again.

And spare time we either play tennis or went to the pictures, or whatever. But I had all the other girls coming and going, at the farm all the time, and they all used to come up to the house of a night, because the boys used to take the trucks to market of a night, and there’d all be, be like the young fellas, so all the young girls, most of them out of factories, would come up to see all the boys, presumably they were coming up to get the mail or to ring up, you know? (laugh)

So, that was always a lot of young fellas around, and a lot of fun going on (laugh), so that’s about what I did, and I stayed ‘til the end of the War and then, after that I’d met Jack, he’d come out of the Army, and we got married and that was it.

Kathleen Brown: My name is Kathleen Brown, shortened to Kit, Werribee was my third assignment, I was supposed to be there on a fortnightly basis, like all the other girls, a trainee.

At this stage of the game the CSIRO, which was adjacent, oh, (Windham?)’s about two and a half miles, of the Research Farm, they needed a girl, their first Land Army girl, and because I knew a little bit about cows, I was chosen to go to the CSIRO.

And I was given the option to live there, with the manager and his wife, or stay with the girls on the research farm, so I opted to stay with the girls. And there were three girls, three regular girls that milked cows on the research farm, and I at the CSIRO; so we were up at half past four, they went their way, I went mine, on my steedy bicycle, and I rode the three miles, to the CSIRO, back in time for breakfast, back again to do up the washing up, and then back again, to milk in the afternoon.

So, the Geelong road knew me pretty well, in those days, really, but they were lovely days, I made wonderful friends, amongst, especially amongst those regular girls; the people of Werribee were particularly good to us, I thought.

Like you we went to a church service, the Presbyterian Church sort of kindly took us under their wing, we had wonderful dances there, and the Comforts Fund had a dance, I think every fortnight, and the Red Cross had another one, we had, and the theatre was on once or twice a week, or something, the Air Force wasn’t very far away, there was one at Werribee and one at Laverton and we had the odd, hot shoe shuffle I suppose you’d call it, in the common room, where we got bales of hay out, and decorated the place up; on the whole we did very well, I think, you know.

But we worked hard, the girls worked hard, but the regulars at Werribee had it, a little bit easier, they knocked off at lunchtime on Saturday, and weren’t on duty again ‘til Monday morning, the cow girls didn’t, they got just the one day off, a month, one day off a month, and that consisted of, after you’ve milked the cows in the morning, you know; for two pound a, for two pound a week, and our keep.

Kathleen Brown: Mm.

Gwlad McLachlan: Most of the records relating to the Women’s Land Army have been lost, or destroyed, in 1991 Mary Low, with the help of former Land Army women, published a story, about the Land Army, in Victoria, the book was titled “Down to Earth”, and I spoke by telephone to Mary Low, several weeks ago, and I asked her about the book that she’d written.

Mary Low: We started as an association when we found out that there were no official records of Land Army left, and we decided we’d better start collecting things, and put it in some form which’d always be on record, of the work we did.

Gwlad McLachlan: Could you tell me about your involvement with the Land Army, how it came about?

Mary Low: Oh, the same as all the others, we were very patriotic in those early days, in those War days, and you could join the Land Army at 17, so quite a few of us did that, you couldn’t get into the other women’s services then, and it mainly, well I think patriotism was behind it all.

Gwlad McLachlan: So there was no conscription at all, through the Department of Labour or anything?

Mary Low: Oh no. No. No, no, oh well you were still under the Department of Manpower, and, in wartime you could, you had to work where you were told to work, you couldn’t just leave a job, and go off onto another one, you had to get Manpower’s permission to do it.

Gwlad McLachlan: So, what was the reason that the Land Army first became established, then?

Mary Low: Well, by 1942 the government had realised that one of the main things they needed, as supplies, for the Forces, was flax, because from flax was made linen thread, which was used for, in the making of tents, parachute harness, soldiers’ puttees, things like that, they just couldn’t get by without flax, and it could, of course couldn’t get here from overseas where most of it was grown, in wartime.

So the government set up the Commonwealth Flax Mills, and in July 1942 they set up the Australian Women’s Land Army, to initially provide labour for the flax fields. And what they did was they contracted the farmers in the right conditions to grow flax, and the girls worked on the harvesting of it, and in the mills.

Gwlad McLachlan: And were there a few main centres, I notice that Riddells Creek was a place that was mentioned a fair bit.

Mary Low: Riddells Creek, Lake Bolac was the biggest one.

Gwlad McLachlan: Was it?

Mary Low: Strathkellar was another one, down Drouin and Koo Wee Rup they had flax mills, and that, there’d be, well at one stage at Lake Bolac there were over a hundred girls working there, but oh, it’s a very hard job, and it only grows in places where it’s very windy, and dry, and etc, etc, and very wet in winter, too.

Gwlad McLachlan: And another aspect of working with the Land Army, which really stood out, and that was for a lot of the women were sent away to fairly isolated areas, that must have been difficult?

Mary Low: Yes, it was, because some of them would have been there for three or four years, and they, very, they never, didn’t work with another land girl, and in fact they usually became part of the farmer’s family, and they’ve kept up contact ever since.

Gwlad McLachlan: And, oh tell me about the uniform, Mary, what was the story with that?

Mary Low: Well we didn’t have a uniform when we started, when we originally went in, we were given a pair of overalls, boots, a raincoat, and a shirt, I think, anything else you had to supply yourself – oh actually in the first three months they had to supply everything themselves, even to their own boots, and that was pretty hard, oh there’s a tale of one girl on the flax work in the early days, who got so tired of wet boots, and trying to dry them out at night, and go off again next morning in dry ones, that she wrote and asked for, gumboots, and then she got a letter back saying: “Don’t you know there’s a War on?” (laugh).

Gwlad McLachlan: I notice one of the stories related to, I think they had, the girls had a supervisor, that wouldn’t allow them to do their washing, on a Sunday.

Mary Low: Yes. Well that’s right, that was another one, and in the early days, the very early days, particularly at Riddells Creek, those girls were billeted in a, oh, a large building, they had to collect firewood on the way home, and cook their own meals, when they got there.

Gwlad McLachlan: Well there were a lot of stories about the poor accommodation.

Mary Low: Mm.

Gwlad McLachlan: And even in one of the stories, I think Mary White told about, the girls were billeted, with an orchardist, and apparently the toilet was always so far away from the house…

Mary Low: Yes, (laugh) that was, common.

Glad McLachlan: Pardon?

Mary Low: Yes, (laugh) that was common.

Gwlad McLachlan: Was it?

Mary Low: Oh yes! And at the later part of my time I was sent to an orchard up in the Goulburn Valley, and the lady had, had had Land girls before, but they’d refused to send her any more because she didn’t have the, decent accommodation for them, so, she was able, and it was hard in wartime to build a, sort of couple of bedrooms, and a sort of a dining room, but what she never, needed to have, was a bathroom and a toilet, which she built, but there was no bath and no toilet in it. So we used to have to go, you know, 150 yards up the paddock, at night, and we were not allowed to use her bathroom, we’d have to swim in the channel to get clean at night.

Gwlad McLachlan: And apparently there were a few snakes, around there.

Mary Low: Oh yes! (laughter) But that was part and parcel of it?

Gwlad McLachlan: Mary, I’m fortunate enough to have the book “Down to Earth”, that was compiled by Mary Low, and on page 70 Emily Nixon’s written something about you, can I read it out?

Mary Low: Yes?

Gwlad McLachlan: It says, oh, and this is talking about the, who was in charge or the people, and it says: “When Mrs. Mellor left, Miss Mary White took her place, and she also was a wonderful friend and officer. I found her a very happy person, she always had time for our problems, and taught us how to keep ourselves busy, and make every day a fun day, we were encouraged to laugh and sing, and I really loved the life”, I thought, you…?

Mary Low: Well that’s, oh I’m thrilled, how wonderful, but it’s, up to a point I suppose, it’s fairly true, I had some very big problems on my hands, from time to time, it was my job to do my best, to care for the girls, and I had a lot of experience with camping, and with girls, and being a teacher, I’d had a lot of experience too with students, and so, although, it was difficult (laugh), but that one of the funny things that happened, one day we were working, out on the flax, at Riddells Creek, and we had a little song about it: (chanted, not sung:)

“The Land Girls we,
As busy as can be,
Out on the hills,
Of Riddell.
You can’t be lax,
When you’re spreading flax,
O’er the hills,
Of Riddell.

We spread the sheaves,
Over grass and leaves,
Far, out on the hills
Of Riddell.
Then the wild winds blow,
And our neat rows go,
Over the hills of Riddell.

And, another day, one of the girls who was a band cutter, running round the fields, she pretended she was a Herald boy, calling out: “Read all about it!”, and then she’d say: “Emily Nixon said so and so, and so and so, and so and so and so”, and then she’d talk about somebody else doing something else, and: “Read all about it, in the, Land Army News!” – there wasn’t a Land Army News, but you know, it was just fun.

Gwlad McLachlan: The Australian Women’s Land Army was one of the groups incidentally, who’ve become eligible for the Civilian Service Medal, 1939 to 1945, and that’s been recently awarded.

Vi Malcolm: We’ve sort of been the forgotten ones all along, so it’s nice to know that we have something at last.

Gwlad McLachlan: Vi, have you always had that feeling, or has that been a feeling throughout the Land Army, that you were the forgotten ones?

Vi Malcolm: Well, yes at the end, they’d said, you know we, they’d destroyed more or less all the records that they had, and that they were going to have us treated us like the other services, weren’t they, and then they decided they would scrap that, and it was just rubbed out.

Gwlad McLachlan: Yes, another important event, which was, which featured very lard in the memories of the women, related to the feeling about being included, in the ANZAC Day marches.

Elaine Peters: It was a thrill, to know that we had been accepted, and Mary and I, and a couple of other girls, mainly girls that had been at Werribee, did we have a wonderful fortnight before the march, and Mary was on the television, once or twice, and on radio, and I certainly was on television, on the Ray Martin Show, I think it was, then of course came March day, well if we weren’t a proud lot marching, there was no doubt about it, and it was amazing to me, how many people, on the sidelines, said: “Oh, they were on telly last week! Remember the Land Girls, they were on telly?”, (laughter), and by this time, our president had a banner made for us, and the Scouts from that area always carry our banner, and do us proud, don’t they?

I think there must have been about four hundred girls, so there was, there were a lot of girls marched, that had never marched before.

'Malayan Harriers'

Gwlad McLachlan: I’m Gwlad McLachlan, and we’re going to be speaking very shortly with Colin Fritch, and Bob Moore.

(music: “The Road to Gundagai”.)

The recently published Heroes Denied, the Malayan Harriers’ Conspiracy, has become a runaway best seller, and Colin Fritch, the author of the book, lives in Geelong, and Colin is with me, in the studio, along with Bob Moore, and Bob, along with 14 other Australian soldiers became known as the Malayan Harriers.

Colin, why is Heroes Denied such a controversial book?

Colin Fritch: Well Gwlad, I’ve just picked up on the banner for your programme, the title :”Keeping in Touch”, and I suppose it’s so significant that the story be told after 48 years because here we have 15 men who they went through probably the most monumental adventure that anyone could ever imagine.

They were in the main young men of 19, 20 years of age, who went off to war, and were amongst the first Australian troops to meet the Japanese in Malaya.

They were decimated, they were beaten very, very badly by the Japanese, they spent a substantial amount of time, in fact five weeks, in the jungle, behind enemy lines, they made good their escape, back to Australia.

And when they got home their story really started, they were treated abysmally, they were treated as veritable lepers, no one wanted to know them, particularly, and after that sort of experience that was the logic behind them not seeing each other for 48 years, and Heroes Denied is a very, very sad story, in lots of respects, Gwlad.

Gwlad McLachlan: Bob, thank you, thank you very much for coming in.

Bob Moore: Thank you, Gwlad.

Gwlad McLachlan: Picking up on that, how, that you didn’t have contact with the other 14 survivors, could you tell me why that was?

Bob Moore: Glad, I’ve been asked this many a time, as you’ll realise, I can’t give you a straight out answer, one of the comrades who came home, with me, has said: “Oh look, we had our mortgages, we had our marriage to, and we had houses to look, why would we, should we be worried about each other”, but then, the trauma that we went through, you’d think there’d be a bond there that could never be broken.

But I never looked for anyone, I never, no intention of, didn’t even think of seeing them, didn’t go to a reunion, never been to an ANZAC Day march, now, someone could explain that, but I can’t, Gwlad, why was it so, I often ask.

Gwlad McLachlan: Bob, coming back to, just getting back to the other men that were involved, how many Geelong men were with you, in Malaya?

Bob Moore: In our mortar platoon, Gwlad, well I’d, well we’d better stick to that, because there was a lot of Geelong men in the 2/29th, which I, if I name them I might start missing out a couple.

But the ones in our platoon were a Hector Simpson, who worked on the cement works in those days, Wally Fisher, who was a grocer, Wip Dickens, Ronnie Jones, who was a grocer with Dickens, they’re getting a good plug, (laugh), and myself, and so the four of us were in the mortar platoon of the 2/29th Division, and actually our commanding officer was Lieutenant Colonel Robertson, who was a Geelong man also, and run a fuel yard, down Chilwell.

And why we got into the 29th was when the, it was formed, and Colonel Robertson deciding he wanted as many Geelong men as he could, went around all the training battalions, and luckily, or, shall we say unluckily, we got into the 2nd 29th.

Gwlad McLachlan: Colin, tell me, in the book, about the Malayan Campaign, that’s a very dramatic part of the book.

Colin Fritch: Yes, Glad, Heroes Denied commences in the heat of battle, the young men found themselves virtually overnight, in Malaya, and certainly in the front line, prior to the Japanese invasion.

The Japanese set themselves one hundred days, to take the impregnable fortress, Singapore, as it was to turn out they did that in 70, they exceeded even their own expectations.

The 2nd 29th Battalion was amongst the first Australian troops to meet the Japanese, and they did so on the 18th of January, 1942, and Bob Moore and the other members of the 2/29th, went into a battle that lasted three days, and three nights.

And despite what they expected, they got anything but, they faced the Japanese 5th, and 6th Imperial Guards’ Division, they were chosen because of their height and stamina, and they’d been battle hardened by fighting the Chinese in Manchuria, from, since 1937, basically.

So the Australians got a bit of a shock, they were expecting to face a few weaklings, in fact 200 they were told that they were going to go and meet, they met something like five and a half thousand Japanese, and against the five and a half thousand Japanese were pitted 18 hundred Australians.

The lieutenant colonel commanding the 2/29th Battalion, Colonel Robinson, was killed in the first day of fighting, the second in command, Major (Olaf?), was killed also, so the 2/29th were left in the first couple of fighting without their senior officer.

They went, after they suffered 60% casualties, in what I call the worst retreat in Australian military history, the 2nd 29th Battalion along with the 2nd 19th, and other British and Indian elements, retreated towards Singapore, during the course of the retreat, many, many hundreds of Australians were killed.

The remnants were forced into the jungles and swamps, and that’s where the Bob Moore, and the characters in Heroes Denied ended up, Gwlad, they ended up in the swamps, for three or four days.

When they came out there was the composite forces of about 200, approximately 200 and they were Indian, British, and Australian troops, and they were led by seven commissioned Australian officers, who decided that, a little further down the track, that they needed to part company, and the order was issued “Every man for himself, break up into small parties, and find your own lines”.

The officers went their own way and left the men to their own devices, and if it had not been for two people, and I like to think it was for two people, one, Sergeant Mick Gibbons, 20 years of age, and a corporal, Bob Moore, who we’ve got it with us this morning, 15 Australians wouldn’t have got home.

For the next five weeks, they spent the most terrible time imaginable, behind enemy lines, in the jungle, facing starvation, sickness, illness, you name it, they faced it, and on the point of starvation they happened across some Chinese communists, who took them under their wing for a while, and Gibbons and his “band of renowned”,’s worked with the Chinese for a week or so.

The Chinese, unfortunately, could not feed the Australian, so they moved Mick Gibbons and Bob Moore, and the other 13 of their party, on, and they moved them to a British subversive lieutenant, Jock Smiley, who was with a group called the Johor Rifles, volunteer rifles, and they worked with him for a number of weeks, carrying out demolition work, on railways, behind the lines, didn’t achieve too much I don’t think, but it kept them busy.

Smiley could no longer feed them either, I mean food was very tough to obtain, the Japanese were consolidating, they’d had by this time reached Singapore Island, the causeway was blown, in an endeavour, an attempt to stop them getting onto the Singapore Island, but that didn’t last very long, it didn’t achieve much at all, and at that stage Gibbons was moved on again, with Moore and his party, and it was decided that they had to escape, that they had to find their way back to Australia.

Gwlad McLachlan: And I’d be interested to ask you, Bob, about when the Japanese first struck in the Malaysian Peninsula, what were your feelings then, what it…?

Bob Moore: Now, we were going in, to fight little Japanese, who had handfuls of crackers to make a lot of noise, they were going to throw the crackers at us.

So when we did go, head towards (Amua?), to meet these 200 Japanese who were there, and we were going to clean them up, there was Indians, and coming, walking along the road, saying: “Finish, finish”, see?, and we thought: “Well why (laugh), what a nuisance, because they’ve finished the Jap’s, and then we’re not going to have, get a go at ‘em”.

We realised, the next day, that it was the whole Indian Division that was finished, not the War, and so there we were, I think we were in the middle of the Jap’s, at that stage, I think they’d let us come in, and sit in the middle, of them, because all of a sudden there were Jap’s, everywhere, they were all sides of us.

And we’d never fired a shot, in practice, never a live shot until we got into action; when we were training in Malaya we used to train on their footy fields, or and in full view of all the population, Jap spies and everything, they knew we didn’t (laugh) have any live ammunition, then the greatest trauma I think, that I went through, was when the non-commissioned officers, that’s sergeants and corporals, were called up by a lieutenant, and said: “Now, smash your mortars up, and throw ‘em away”.

And we had to smash our mortars up, throw them into swamps, or anything wet, so as the Jap’s couldn’t get them; but then again why, why did we have to do that? And that’s the worst thing ever happened to us though, that’s laying down your arms, I don’t care what anyone says.

So there you are, we had to withdraw, and as I say for me to lay down my arms, I think that was the finish of me, that was the finish of the War, as far as I was concerned (laugh), because I couldn’t see any other point.

Gwlad McLachlan: Well but there’s a very dramatic part in the book, where a decision is made, to go separate ways, every man for himself, could you tell me about that?

Bob Moore: Oh, Gwlad, yes, I won’t, and there were, we went for three days, that body of 200 Colin mentioned, we marched for three days, heading for a place called Yong Peng, which we found out later was in Japanese hands, so the officers, or someone came back and told us: “Look, we’d, better, every, better chance is to split into small parties, head for your own lines, get back to your lines, and we’ll reform there”.

Now, here we are, in the middle of Malaya, no maps, they’d never, we’d never thought of learning languages when we were over there, or anything like, no maps, nothing, in the middle of the – and they say: “Get back down to enemy lines”. Now (laugh), we thought: “Singapore, perhaps?”, but we didn’t know where the Singapore was, we knew in the general direction.

So, there’s 30 of them, of the mortar platoon left, we were all in a group, and I think it was, oh a Mick Gibbons decided, we’d have a better chance with a group of perhaps 15, than twos and threes, so he said: “Who’s coming with me?” and it was that stage, when we were starting to look for the officers, you admit, and you think that your officer’s going to be with you, and guide you, and but there was no officers, we saw them going along the road, in their own direction, on their own, no men with them,

Mick went towards one of them and they asked for a compass and maps, and they said: “No, we want those ourselves”, so it was that stage the officers left us, now that’s the second biggest trauma that could happen to a young soldier, first laying down his arms, and the second his officers leaving you.

So Mick said: “Well come on, now I’ll take you back to Singapore”, and that was the start (laugh) of a long, arduous walk, Glad.

Gwlad McLachlan: Colin, the role of Mick Gibbon in this whole story appears crucial.

Colin Fritch: Yes, it’s unbelievable to think that a man, of 20 years of age, could show the flexibility, the resilience, the fortitude, that his seniors, in particular the officers, did not show. I mean at the most diabolical of stages he stepped into the breach, he took the leadership role, and he brought home 15 men, safe and well, but he was treated disgustingly, for that achievement.

Gwlad McLachlan: We’ll come back to another part of the story, which is quite fascinating, and that’s the stealing of the sampans.

Colin Fritch: When they hit the coast they, and Bob Moore, and Ron Jones, swam out to a sampan that was moored a little way off shore, several Chinese fishermen were aboard, and they decided to make good their escape when Moore and Jones emerged from the murky depths, they jumped overboard and they, in fact Moore and Gibbons grabbed a Chinese and gave him instructions that he was to sail them to Australia.

He laughed, he thought that was most amusing, and so Gibbons instructed Bob to shoot him, and they’d had, obtained a couple of 38 pistols from some dead British officers, and Gibbons said: “Shoot him, Bob?”, and Bob turned to Gibbons and said: “No, I’m not going to shoot him, you’re the senior, you shoot him”.

And Gibbons said: “No, I’m issuing an order, you shoot him”, and this went on for a while and of course the Chinese fisherman just laughed, and ran off into the distance, while the argument was ensuing.

And anyway, they boarded the sampan, and after hours and hours of false starts they eventually got the flour sacking sail up and ready to go, but what they’d realised by that stage was that the tide had gone out and they were on the mud, they weren’t going anyway at all.

When the tide did come in they drifted about aimlessly, they drifted in fact back towards shore, toward the Japanese patrols that were on the beach, and it was a time of sheer terror.

When they did get going, sailing along quite nicely, Japanese planes were circling overhead, so one of the 15 got up the bow, in some of the Chinese peasants’, fishermen’s gear that was there, the you know the broad straw hat and so on, and ultimately they sailed across the Straits of Malacca, quite a hairy piece of water, with Japanese ships going up and down during the night, and the Japanese were well and truly in control of the seas

Next morning they were shipwrecked, on the beach at (Ben Carlos?) Island, and when they got onto the beach they were done-in and they came across a plantation of pineapples, which were all green, but they nonetheless gorged themselves on those and had a real picnic, there, before they made their way cross country to Padang, and they found their way back to Australia, they got back on a Dutch freighter, to Fremantle.

And there you would think: “Well that’s a quite a magnificent story in its own right, but it’s there, Gwlad, that the story of Heroes Denied really starts, in my opinion.

Bob Moore: When that boat was pulling into Fremantle, I did expect that, not a fleet of ambulances, but a few down there, to take us to either a convalescent camp, a hospital, for a good scrub up, a feed, and general, but instead of that we were shoved into a truck and taken 60 miles, to Northam, which was a training camp in Western Australia.

Now, there we were (sigh) oh, taken to have an issue of clothes.

Now, an issue of clothes was that if one had a pair of pants on they’d give him a shirt, to complete the uniform, if you had one left boot they’d give you a right one, it was a shocking thing, we’re, not heroes, I didn’t want to be a hero, but I did like well, we’d thought someone would call us up and say: “Well look, what are the Jap’s like, how are they fighting, what are, (what are?), and how do we beat them?”, instead of that, no.

We go into Northam, where you go into the city of Northam, we have, we have walked into a, I’ve got to say this, you (laugh) walked into a pub with no money, instead of someone come up and shaking hands, saying: “Oh, good on you, Dig, you know, you’re one of those fellas back”, you could see an edging-away, of people, so you’re getting, being ostracised, then and there, right and before, and we’d only been home 10 minutes.

Colin Fritch: That was after of course, Gwlad, they spent six weeks at Northam, being forgotten about, but initially, of course they were threatened with the charge, or court marshalled for desertion. The Army tried it’s very, very best, to make that stick, it interrogated them individually, and as a group, who could believe that they came home and pointed their finger, in a time of war, at their officers?

And that’s in fact what they did, and the High Command’d have none of that, they found that laughable, in fact they said: “No, you’re at fault, we’re going to court marshal, and try you for desertion”,

but the beauty of the story, Heroes Denied, is the fact that the truth will always shine through, Glad, and the 15 of them told the truth to a tee, they told identical stories, individually, under interrogation, it couldn’t make any charge stick, they were honest, they were telling the truth, so they split them up, sent them to B class activities.

Gwlad McLachlan: Bob, when you were coming home on that train, from Melbourne, you hadn’t seen your families and you pulled into the Geelong station and there were. apparently there’s nobody at the station, when you pulled in?

Bob Moore: No, there was no one, no one there at all, but and but my dear sister had watched too, I got in touch with her to tell her that, you know, we would be coming home, she knew and she hung over the back fence of her place, because the train used to pass there, and saw me coming, but no, there was no one there, but when I did get to (Packo?) Extension the neighbours were there, out in force, to greet the hero, coming home, so that was something.

(soft mouth organ music starts playing)

But the general thing, of other people, Glad, in Geelong, was pretty oh, nasty, I can understand it now, but I couldn’t understand it then:

“What are you doing home, when my husband’s still over there”,

“And did you see me brother?”, or: “Where was he?”, No?”,

“Why didn’t you see him, were you running too fast?”: little things like that that were said, time and time again:

“Could ya, how long can you take that sort of thing, you know, did you want to stay home?”

One of the fellows who, and Billy (Westhead?) in Melbourne, took his colour patch off, so no one would know that he was a, the 2/29th, I wouldn’t, think I wish I’d done that meself, but never mind, that was the general attitude of the public.

Gwlad McLachlan: On Thursday, I saw you, and Colin, on the Ray Martin Show, and Alf Garden, Garland, of, the National President of the R.S.L., (cough, pardon me), he said a few things and I thought I might just repeat them, if that’s all right, I’ve made a little note of them?

Bob Moore: Certainly, Gwlad.

Glad McLachlan: He said you were treated very badly, he said: “I don’t believe that the system treated them very nicely, at all”, he said: “We believe they were given a very bad deal”, and also, he said: “It should have been looked at, in a much better light”, so, does that make you feel a little bit better?

Bob Moore: No, oh but Glad, that doesn’t, that didn’t impress me at all, I don’t think…

Glad McLachlan: Is it the start?

Bob Moore: It’s a start, but to, I want a citation, in the War History, to say, “Mick Gibbons led 15 men back, and in the Army’s, oh blah, blah, they did the right thing, and God bless ‘em”, that’s all, Gwlad, not much to ask for, is it?

Glad McLachlan: No, not much, not much at all.

'Australian Army Nurses'

Gwlad McLachlan: I’ve got an important programme coming up this morning, I’m going to be speaking with Betty Cornford, and Mirth Jamieson, both of whom were nurses during the Second World Wars. Betty, in 1941 I understand you were Betty, Duval, you were a young nursing sister from Yea?

Betty Cornford: Mm.

Gwlad McLachlan: From up country? And you’d recently completed your training at Epworth, Hospital, would you like to tell our listeners how you came to enlist in the Defence Forces?

Betty Cornford: I think it would be the same feeling as a man joining up, that, you had, in the nursing case you had something to offer, I think something that was perhaps unique, at that particular time, that a woman, woman could volunteer.

Gwlad McLachlan: Mirth, what was your experience, where did you train, and how did you end up in the Army nursing service?

Mirth Jamieson: I trained at Warrnambool, and I joined up in 1942, and I served in many units, the main highlight was going to Singapore, at the end of the War. We were given a, talks all the way over, on what we might find when we got there, the conditions of the boys that had been prisoners, their Berri-Berri, the malaria, what we mustn’t give them to eat, they mustn’t have chocolates, they mustn’t have anything rich like that; however, we arrived at Singapore, we were not permitted to go ashore, but within a very short time these boys came down to the wharf, they’d walked from Changi, and they had heard that there was an Australian ship, in, and there were nurses on it.

And they streamed down, and they were, didn’t have any shirts, some of them had their old digger’s hats, which had been tied up with bits of flax, and what have you, they might have had footwear, some of them had a thong type of footwear, that they’d made out of coconut fibre, and they were, had all been issued with what in those days we knew as barber-towels, they were just small white towels, which they had around their necks, I suppose like a sweat-rag.

And they, and they just kept coming, and coming, and we were up in the top deck, shouting down to them, and they were shouting up to us, and nothing was intelligent, we were throwing them cigarettes, we were throwing them chocolates (laugh), and eventually the captain, of the ship, said: “Put down the gangplank”.

Now this went on all day, and they kept streaming on board, and we sat, on the floors, in the salons, saloons at least, and they just talked, and talked, and a lot of it didn’t make any sense at all, but they were just so thrilled to be talking, to somebody, and I think it was, we were like their kinfolk, very much, it was a very emotional time, and that’s when it really hit me, how wonderful it was to be an Australian, you just oozed with a pride, their humour, their determination, their, their, it was just so wonderful, it really was, it’s very hard to describe, but we all felt this, and that went on, ‘til late into the night, and then eventually they wandered off, and then we were allowed to go, and visit Changi, and that again was an amazing thing.

We visited what they called the hospital part of Changi, and these men were very emaciated, they had suffered, all sorts of things, malaria, Berri-Berri, they had tropical ulcers, they had had ulcers, gastric ulcers, they had no drugs, they had humour, they had determination, and their orderlies were wonderful, they showed us pieces of gauze that they had been using, for a long time, washing, and reusing, it was the colour of mud, the size of a postage-stamp, frayed at the edges, but it was still being used, every little thing was precious, they wasted nothing.

And uh, I remember being there, when Brigadier Blackburn, a VC, came in to say goodbye to the boys, he was being flown home, he didn’t want to leave his men, and they didn’t want him to go, and it’s very hard to describe it, but it was something one will never forget, you just felt it, you felt the atmosphere, I don’t think it could ever be reproduced, I wouldn’t think that’d be possible, but they had great admiration for their officers, and it was very obvious that the discipline that they had, was what helped to carry them through.

When we were walking, this is outside the hospital section of Changi, when you were walking just amongst the other POW’s, they knew their officers, they saluted them, and what’s more, every time they passed us, we were saluted, one felt very humbled, but it was the discipline that held them together, I am sure.

Gwlad McLachlan: Mirth, do you want to tell us about Matron Sage, she’s a very famous, Australian nurse?

Mirth Jamieson: Yes, Matron Sage, was our matron in chief, and she was an um, a remarkable person, Miss Sage, and she was an outstanding nurse and an administrator. She was a very tall, handsome woman, she had a strong face, but she had beautiful blue eyes, they were warm, and they were observant, and she had a slow, endearing, smile.

She did simple things, for instance when we had the hospital set up, in Singapore, and she told us, she said: “You won’t be able to cure these boys, they’re waiting to go home, but just talk to them, you can sit on their beds, you can even have a cigarette if you want to”, now that of course was really something different; but you’d go on night duty, and the boys’d keep coming in all night, and you’d be making many, many cups of tea, on a Primus stove, for them, and they would sit, and talk to you, and they would have a cigarette, and you’d have a cigarette, and in the mornings you would feel, not physically exhausted, but you were rather emotionally exhausted, from, they just outpoured everything, to you. And then you learnt to turn off from it, you had to, and they talk about a counselling, and I think this is what was going on, but we didn’t have a name for it, it was just, they were talking it off to us, telling us things that no doubt, they weren’t going to tell anybody else.

And also, Miss Sage, she went to get the nurses out, who had been POW’s, at Palembang, and you can just imagine the great thrill it was, when those girls saw the plane arrive, and the door opened, and these two women came out of the plane, in grey uniforms, but they were wearing slacks, not skirts! And it was Miss Sage and Floyd, and they were just overwhelmed, by being welcomed, and you can just imagine the emotional scene that was.

And, there wasn’t enough room on the plane, to take Miss Sage, and Floydy back, they decided they would stay, with the 30 remaining women, the nurses were to go back to Singapore, and they would stay with these others until another plane came the next day, and the Japanese people were still there; and that’s the sort of thing that Miss Sage did, she was a human, understanding, compassionate woman, and she was loved by us all, and she will not be forgotten, ever, we remember her with warm affection, and gratitude. There were many matrons that I served under, and they were all very fine women, but Miss Sage was somebody very special, to us all.

Gwlad McLachlan: Talking about the nurses, many of whom died, in captivity, Betty, you mentioned in the diary that you gave me, about the fact that, of some of the nurses, you went on a different ship, and they were the nurses that became prisoners of war, some of the…?

Betty Cornford: Yes, well we were on the Mauritania, and another hospital was, was on the Queen Mary, and at one stage the Queen Mary, oh she was so much faster than the rest of the convoy, that she did a complete circle, of the convoy, and then disappeared on the horizon, but as she left us, all the ships were lined completely with, everybody and well, saying goodbye to them, but, if we’d realised what was happen, going to happen, to them, I’m sure we would have, oh well, nobody knows what’s going to happen in wartime, do they?

But oh, of our 65 fellow nursing sisters, aboard the Queen Mary, 21 would be murdered by Japanese, as they came ashore at Banka Island, 12 drowned, and eight were taken prisoner of war, and only 24 of the 65 nurses, sisters, would ever return, to Australia alive.

'Gallipoli'

Gwlad McLachlan: I’m Gwlad McLachlan, and I’m speaking with Roy Kyle, Gallipoli veteran, so we’re very privileged to have him come into the studio today, to share with us some of his memories of the First World War. Roy, thank you very much for coming in, from what I’ve read, there were just thousands of men, throughout Australia, wanting to enlist, could you tell us about what the circumstances were, that you decide that you wanted to enlist?

Roy Kyle: Well, I think, the Gallipoli landing. Oh it’s a strange thing, you know, but that Gallipoli landing, where we lost thousands of men, oh, stirred the whole country into a wave of patriotism, and I think that’s probably never been equalled in Australia, and probably never will be equalled again, and you had to live through it to realise it, it’s almost impossible to explain it, actually, and that people were, I don’t know, um they were, well they went off their heads, really, with patriotism, and oh well I know the thing was a terrible tragedy, but it inspired, inspired, the young people to want to go, and it’s funny reaction, but it was, that was the reaction.

Gwlad McLachlan: Roy, what were your feelings, though, what were your memories, of that landing, at Gallipoli? Was it night-time when you arrived?

Roy Kyle: Yes? Well, yes, it was, it was early morning, actually, and when we got off it was early morning, and I think the day, and daybreak was, just about breaking, and we got off at Watson’s Pier, it was the only pier there, it was a ramshackle little affair, but, we got off there. And we unloaded the boat, and that all the (laugh) stores were stacked at the end of the pier, I was one of the unfortunate ones, who were, allotted to stand guard over them. And there was a gun, called Beachy Bill, it was on a hill called Achi Baba, about oh some two or three miles away I suppose, but and he wasn’t very accurate, he just simply used to fire it down, I think down the beach and in the hopes that he would hit somebody. And he hit about, oh, I think he accounted for about two or three thousand Australians, all told, while we were there.

Gwlad McLachlan: That happened when…?

Roy Kyle: That went on, and until about midday, when we, mm all, the whole crowd ever got together and unloaded the, and carried the, stores away, to a safer area, under the cliff.

Glad McLachlan: Right, apparently there was, everything had to be brought into Gallipoli that, the food, the water?

Roy Kyle: Yes everything, even water, had to be brought, there was no water, there was nothing there, it was the most desolate hole you ever saw.

They’d said there had been a fisherman’s hut (laugh), at Gaba Tepe, which was about so, oh perhaps a couple of miles down, towards Cape Hellas where we were supposed to land, so as it was relatively flat country there. But they were not aware of the currents, there was a current, that took them up about two miles out of our route, and out of the er, under the cliffs of Gallipoli. And but there was nothing there, and everything had to be brought in, we even we as I say, even water, all our foodstuffs, and water, and ammunition, everything else, had to be brought in, by boat.

Gwlad McLachlan: And what did that mean, as far as living conditions, with the severe restriction on water, that must have been, a bit, mm.

Roy Kyle: Well the living conditions were bad, I mean they were, food, well the food was bad, oh, I think it was probably the best that could have been done, but it was mainly billy beef, and hard tack biscuits, and when I say hard tack biscuits, they were really biscuits that you wanted a sledgehammer to break, because they broke your teeth while you were trying to break them. But, and jam, we got some jam to put on these biscuits, if we could possibly eat them. We used to soak them of course, and them into a sort of porridge, pulp, and eat it that way. But it was mainly billy beef, and rice, and the water, and we had practically no water;

I think the cooks were issued about oh, well about a pint a day, it might have been two pints, I don’t know if it was one pint, anyway it was very little, the cooks got it, and they had to do all the cooking with that some oh, give us what cup of tea we possibly could, if they could get us, and they couldn’t give us much, and well out of the dregs of the tea we had to use to shave with, because there was no other, no other water, except the sea water, and you couldn’t shave with that. (laugh)

Gwlad McLachlan: I believe that you were…

Roy Kyle: (laugh) They were rough, believe me, they were, they were rough, rough conditions (laugh).

Gwlad McLachlan: I believe there was quite a problem with lice, and flies?

Roy Kyle: Naming them in order, I would say that the biggest pests on the Peninsula were lice, and then the flies, rats, and Turks, I think Turks were the least of our troubles, but the whole place was absolutely louse-ridden. You’d clean yourself as well as you could, by, because they used to get under the seams, of your singlets and that sort of thing, of course, and you’d go through, squashing these things, with your thumbnails, by the hundreds, and in, but within half an hour after putting it on, they’d be just as bad as ever.

And they used to lay their eggs, too, out of in the seams, of course, and we’d go through, get, to try and burn those, by a running a match, a lighted match, down the seams, and but and there were, you got some of them, but not many of, it didn’t make any difference anyway, because the adults were soon there.

Gwlad McLachlan: (Tch) Oh, dear.

Roy Kyle: It was filthy.

Gwlad McLachlan: Yes.

Roy Kyle: And the flies, you’ve got no idea, we talk about a flies here, in Australia, and what a pest they are, you couldn’t get anything into your mouth, (gagging noise), without flies. You’d get a biscuit, one of these biscuits, and you’d load it up with the, butter if you had any, and those, the only butter you ever really ever got was when we sent parcels over from Australia, and perhaps there’d be a tin of butter in it. And but you’d try and ward them off with one hand, while you got, you got it into your mouth with the other, but you were very, you always got a mouthful of flies as well.

Gwlad McLachlan: (laughter) I guess you sort of, sort of started to not even try to think about it, was, the only way to cope, would it?

Roy Kyle: (laugh) But the Turk, the Turk was the least of our worries, I think.

Gwlad McLachlan: Was it?

Roy Kyle: Yes.

Gwlad McLachlan: Roy, what was the Nek, at Gallipoli?

Roy Kyle: Oh the Nek was just a spur, oh, it was desperately defended by the, it was almost impregnable, you had to be a mountaineer, to climb it, to get to it, but I think the Turks probably looked upon it as a, un-takeable, but our fellas, in some, I was not there, but our fellas in some, miraculous manner, managed to clamber up these, the cliff face, to, and with Turkish firing down on them all the time, and got there, and rooted them out at the bayonet-point. And the Turks, of course, they mounted, and the, it was a commanding position, and they mounted attack after attack, to try and take it back, but they never did it.

It was held, right through, it’s all, really formed part and parcel with er, the front line, around towards the, oh Steel’s Post, I suppose, on the left, from where I was, we went to the, straight into Lone Pine, and stayed there.

Gwlad McLachlan: Right, Lone Pine is a name that comes up again and again, in, when you’re speaking about Gallipoli, what was it about Lone Pine that…?

Roy Kyle: Oh, it was desperate, it was a desperate place. (laugh)

I remember, when we relieved the First Division, you’ve got no idea, what their physical condition was like, but they were like the, well, not much difference with these fellas that came out of the concentration camps, during the last war. They were half starved, and they were, in a bad way, but oh their morale, the morale wasn’t, that was still high.

But Lone Pine, it was an isolated little spot, and more towards the right of the Line, it was the only plateau, it was only a small plateau, just covering a few acres, actually, I think on the Peninsula. And it was a desperate fight, on the 6th of August, to get to it, they lost about, oh wait on, six or seven thousand men or something, that was sort of in taking it?

The Turks had their trenches covered in, with oh, at the tops, with logs, logs, and they had to dig through these logs, and prize them out. Oh, but we went there, and I remember we were, we spent a, for the first night, I think, in Steel’s Post, and then we were moved down to the Lone Pine, and the First Divisional fellas said: “Oh, God help you” (laugh).

Now, we didn’t realise what they were talking about, but how do they knew? And we got down, it was a small, it was a salient, actually, in that they could fire at you, impullade you, from, the front, and both sides, fire down your trenches, you see, so, you had little cover. And the trenches were so close together, and I used to serve on a post, called Number Five, and I think the trenches there were about 30 feet away, 30 feet apart, now that was quite a distance, other parts they were 10, 15 feet apart, and that sort of thing, well a constant, it was, it was constant bombing, on both sides of course, when you had bombs, we, the only bombs we had were made out of jam tins, with all sorts of rusty nails and anything they could find to put in ‘em, and they were made down on the beach, and with a detonator put into them, and but they were, minor.

But the Turkish bomb, fortunately, wasn’t much better, and they used to throw these things at us all day long, and what landed on your firing stick, you’d kick into the bottom of the trench, and throw a blanket or an old overcoat or something down, in the hopes that it would muffle it a bit, and hug the front of the trench, when if you did that of course, and you were and you were fairly right. But it was a constant business, there was no let-up, from it. And for that reason I think, it was known as a pretty, you know, unfortunate place, pretty deadly place, to be in. But we were there, we went there, and we stayed there, until the, evacuation, we never got away from it.

Gwlad McLachlan: But, Roy, that evacuation, apparently, I… the Australian, and New Zealand soldiers had been there, about eight months, is that right, and lost thousands of men?

Roy Kyle: Oh yes, that’s from April, to December.

Gwlad McLachlan: From what I’ve read, apparently there was a sense of shock when you were told that you were going to withdraw?

Roy Kyle: Well there was, we were, see Kitchener came over, and he had one look at it, and said: “Get out, no matter what the cost is, get out” because you can’t possibly hold it, during the winter, you’ve got no idea what the winters are like there, they’re bitter, and we had no clothing, for winter clothing, we had no experience of the, you know, living under snow, and ice, and so forth, and he said: “We’ll never hold the place, so get out”. And then, and after he left, a man named Brudenell White, Lieutenant General Sir Brudenell White, oh he and Brigadier Blamey, who was later on, of course, General Marsh, Field Marshall Blamey, they started to work out on a scheme to get them out, and it was estimated that they would have up to, at least up to 25% casualties, and they were prepared for that.

But, they devised a scheme, now what we, well it’s silent warfare; there used to be a perhaps every, at odd intervals, oh, an hour, two hours, three hours, when we weren’t allowed to fire a shot or make any noise, whatsoever, and one time it went on for two days, and the idea was to hoodwink the Turk, he’d think oh, you know, when we did leave, oh well just another one of our foolish stunts, and though, that’s it.

And of course when we left, we went down, and we marched down, through the trenches on, really on blankets, we had the trenches lined with all the old blankets, and all old pur, overcoats and so forth, they could find, they were all at the bottom, rugs, and some sacks, or anything at all, that would deaden the sound of people walking. It was wonderful, the only really, was well organised piece of, it was, there was a, well it were others, others, I suppose actions that were well organised, but this was a wonderful piece of organisation, we didn’t lose a man, didn’t lose a man, there was one man, killed, but that was a stray bullet, that wasn’t …

Gwlad McLachlan: Oh you must have a very vivid memory of that, that night, and that, yes.

Roy Kyle: Oh I do, yes, I, they’d called of volunteers, for mm people who wanted to, you know, just, being towards the end, and being young, and very foolish, I’d volunteered, and I think I was about the second last party that left the trenches, we left at about half past 11, I think it was, we got down to the beach about midnight I suppose, no hesitation there, we marched straight onto small boats, and by the time we just when we were landing on the boat, the last party was leaving the beach, so we waited for the last party to join, and they joined about half an hour later, and we pulled out. And as we pulled out, with all the stores, and ammunition dumps, and so forth, and the beach went up, in a regular bonfire! (laugh)

Gwlad McLachlan: Wow.

Roy Kyle: That’s when the Turk of course realised, that we’d…

Gwlad McLachlan: That you’d gone.

Roy Kyle: That we’d gone.

Gwlad McLachlan: Wow.

Roy Kyle: I often wonder, whether the Turk really knew that we were going, I don’t know, and nobody’s ever disclosed, that the Turks have never claimed it, oh, I don’t know.

Gwlad McLachlan: No.

Roy Kyle: I don’t know.

Gwlad McLachlan: No.