Peter Simmenauer and Chris Gray interviewing
Keith and Fay La Galle
at their home at 2 Fulview Court, Blackburn.
17 August, 2013
Keith owns a successful watchmaker's shop on the corner of Whitehorse and Williams Roads.
PS: We would like you to let us know, firstly, your personal details because I understand you
have been in this area a long time - you were born and brought up here. Then we will go into your recollections about the area - the people, the way things have changed, and all sorts of stuff.
To start with the personal things: you were born here were you, Keith?
KLG: Yes, I was born in Gordon Crescent. It used to be a Bush Nursing Hospital there on the corner of Clarke St. I was born on the 22nd of February, 1938. I'm 75 now.
In those days we lived at 2 King St., Blackburn which is just on the edge of Nunawading. The family moved here in 1920 from Newport. My grandparents came out from England in 1905. They moved around a bit - grandfather wasn't a well man and they advised him to move away from Newport where they were living and come up to the country. So, they were in Holland Rd where the old High School was. They had a chicken farm there but it went bad during the '30's depression so they moved away down to French Island. Grandfather thought he would make money growing chicory which didn't work out so they moved back to Box Hill; so they were still in the area.
My father and my two aunties remained in Blackburn. The oldest, Auntie Marge, was married then and she had two children, Joan and Ken (deceased). She married Jack Henwood - not the orchardist's family. The story I was told was that he was adopted into the family. I can find out for you. My cousin's son, Ashley, has done a pretty comprehensive check-up on all the family so he knows a lot more than I do. It wasn't as much interest to me as he wasn't a blood relative ·- he was an in-law.
My other aunt, Edna, married in 1942 to Mr Ryder. Her husband was in the army and he died in Changi in 1943.
FLG: They had only been married for a few weeks before he was shipped out to Singapore. He was in Malaysia as well. He died about November/December 1943.
PS: That's a bit sad. Did she stay in the district?
KLG: She lived in Box Hill in Court St., just near where my grandparents lived - they lived just down the road in Court St. She moved to Charlotte St. in Blackburn South and lived there for 40 odd years. She never remarried.
PS: Yes, that happened to a lot of people who lost people in the war. Your parents?
KLG: They married in 1936 - September 11 th or 12th.
FLG: We can never remember because Keith's father's parents married in September either the 11 th or 12th and we get the two marriages confused. We can find the proper date, but we seem to have a mental block about the actual date.
PS: September will do! What did he do for a crust?
KLG: Originally, he was a compositor but he got TB in the early 40's and he went over to Cresswell for just over 2 years.
PS: That's a Sanatorium....
KLG: Yes, Macleod, which was the one for the service people, was on one side, and Cresswell was for the civilians. Mum used to have to go out and see him. In those days you were only allowed to go out either two or three days. You were allowed out on Wednesday and Sunday definitely, but I can't remember about Saturday. For mum to go out there, when we lived in King St., she used to walk from King St down to the station, get on a train to Camberwell, get off at Camberwell and get a bus from Camberwell to Cresswell. So, it was quite a hike.
PS: It would have taken her an hour or more.
KLG: I remember coming home with her, because I didn't go every time with her, we came home one night - by the time we got home after having to change at Box Hill Station - it was dark. I can remember that.
PS: You mentioned King St. That's now an industrial area. Was it a residential area in your day?
KLG: No, (the houses) went half way up and Mum and Dad rented from Jim Lecky - he was a plumber. On one side, Major's were a bit further up, and then there was Christie's, and next door to Christie's, there was Tom's. There was vacant land from there down to the railway line and behind that was the old quarry.
PS: Was this a clay quarry?
KLG: Yes.
PS: I've never been sure where all the old clay quarries were located because a lot of them were taken over by AT&T and the history is obscure for quite a lot of them. But I know there were a lot along the railway line but I'm not sure how far they came to.
KLG: There was only one quarry in Blackburn that I know of.
PS: The others were in the Nunawading/Mitcham end. So, this was all north of the railway line. The strip they now call the MegaMile was once clay or something associated with them.
KLG: The one (in Blackburn) - we used to play in there.
PS: Who ran that quarry? Was it Australian Tesselated or one of the smaller ones?
KLG: No, Australian Tesselated Tiles was only up in Mitcham. Mum worked for them.
PS: I'll ask you about that later. I've got a lot of interest in that.
(KLG/PS: looking at the map.)
KLG: That used to be called Simmeler St in the early days. There's King St there and the quarry was back there and you used to come down Alfred St to drive into it. That took up to about there! There was Mr and Mrs Sheep on the corner of King St. and where that was (looking at the map) was the Zerbe's. That was quite a big property. Mrs Zerbe only had one son, I think.
PS: Now you are talking about the corner of Terracotta Drive and Whitehorse Rd. That was their residence and there wasn't any orchard there.
KLG: She had an orchard.
PS: That would have been about 10 acres?
KLG: I don't know....
PS: A lot of them were small. The Zerbe's had quite a few, I think.
KLG: There were a lot of Zerbe's.
FLG: Is that the one that had the big pine hedge? It was huge.
KLG: She was a real character. I could get away with murder with her, and I remember she came in one day to get something done, and she had been down to the butcher's. He was making a joke with her and he said: “We were just trying to work out who was the richest woman in Blackburn. It's either you or Mrs Champion and you won by a penny.” Wow! Did she take on. She blew her stack! And cheeky me said: “And which one won?” She said : ”You can get away with it, Keith, but not.....” (Laughter)
PS: Which Mrs Zerbe was she? You say there was a number of them but can you remember her first name?
KLG: No! It was always Mrs Zerbe! That story I told you I was in the late 20's and Dad even always called her Mrs. Zerbe! And just about next door to them, Dudley Prior had the block and he had a lot of animals in there..... monkeys and..... we used to go in and have a look...
PS: I've never heard that!
KLG: Peacocks and all that sort of stuff. A small zoo. He didn't have any lions or anything like that...
PS: Was that his home or was that a separate area.
KLG: That was his home.
PS: He must have had a fair-sized block then.
KLG: Oh yes, it was a bit block. It must have gone right down (looking on the map).
PS: Between Alfred and....
KLG: Well, that wasn't there. Terracotta Drive and Apollo Court weren't there. That was all vacant. And then Cliff Zerbe put a road in there and put a factory in there - he had that for quite a while in there. And then he sold up and went down to Buffalo and became a farmer.
PS: Are we still talking 40's here?
KLG: Late 40's early 50's. He had gone in the early 60's. It was a light engineering factory.
PS: This is all new to me. I don't have any notes of that area at all.
KLG: Well, next door to Dudley Prier's were all small houses from there to Alfred St., and then on it was houses. The first block of land that Dad bought was down there at..... George St on the corner. He sold that about 1950 and bought the block of land in Vine St. It was on the corner and Joe Harry (?) the locksmith was behind us.
Through Dad and me that the palm trees are still there. Harding, I think his name was Hardin, was the curator or gardener up at the Council. It was just after we got married, and he came in to see Dad one day, and he said: I've got good news for you. And Dad said: And what's that? We are taking all those rotten palm trees out and putting in natives for you. And Dad went through the roof! He said “You're not going to!” Mr Harding said: “Yes, I am. I've made up my mind. That's what's going to happen.” So, they had a big blue, then and there. I knew Mrs Goble who was our local member, and Terry Papps who lived up the other end of the street, knew her too. I rang her up and asked if she would come down because we were having a meeting over it. They came in and virtually stood over us and said that this is what they were going to do. There was a knock at the front door and Terry went out and opened up and said: Mrs Goble? And they said: What are you bringing her for? And we said: We want someone on our side. And she said: I like those palm trees, gave them a look, and that was the end of it! (Laughter)
PS: That wouldn't be Rob Harding by any chance?
KLG: I can't remember.
FLG: It was about 1970-71 or something like that.
PS: I know, because I knew a fellow called Kim Harding who lived in Tyrrell St and it's only about 10-12 years since his big block was subdivided for units. And his father was Rob and he lived in the area, but I'm not sure where.
KLG: No, the one that...... he was the gardener for the Council.
PS: But didn't you say his name was Harding?
KLG: I'm pretty sure it was.
PS: I'm just wondering if his name was Rob Harding. I know his car, but I've never met him. (Laughter). I think I asked you in the shop. I understood those palm trees were planted each side of a drive to a large house that was at the end of Vine St. which was part of their driveway. The house was demolished when the railway line was built.
KLG: Oh no, the palm trees would have had to be in a lot later. When we moved into Vine St. in '51-'52, they were only small when we moved in in the early '50's.
FLG: And of course, on the corner of Vine St and Whitehorse Rd. was Palm Court Receptions - where Kathmandu is now.
PS: Yes, I do remember those.
KLG: And on the other corner, Tommy Craig owned that - he owned both of those properties. He was a First World War veteran who was Mayor at one stage of Nunawading. He was the one I told you that gave them his watch.
PS: I'll ask you to repeat that one because obviously I didn't take notes when we were chatting in the shop.
KLG: Tommy (I'm pretty sure it was Tommy. It was Mr Craig to me) was an old man when I was a boy, and I always remember that he had to wear very strong boots because he got Trench Foot in the trenches and he always had trouble with his feet.
CG: What's Trench Foot?
PS: Your feet rot. The trenches were mainly mud in the First War. There was mud, mud, mud, mud!
KLG: and the seagulls (?) were sitting there too.
PS: Lots of all sorts of nasty stuff including dead bodies as well as lots of rats - to eat too.
FLG: What was the story about the watch?
KLG: Oh yes, it was the one he took to the war with him. He brought it in for Dad to repair, and whether he died around that time and Dad had it and no one really wanted it. Dad handed it over to the Council.
PS: Was it a fob watch or a wrist watch?
KLG: No, it was a wrist watch. It had a broken glass if I remember right.
PS: Now, you have just answered the question I was about to ask. I think you told me your father was a watch maker. When did he start that business?
KLG: Once he found he had TB, he wasn't able to go back into the compositing.
CG: What's a compositor anyway?
KLG: In the printing trade, you get a story, and then it's given to a lino-type operator and he types it all out in lead and the compositor puts that together. It's a specialised trade.
Dad has always played with watches and never taken it seriously. It was a good job for him with TB - no strain or anything.
PS: Also, the type was lead which wouldn't have been too healthy either. No OH&S then!
KLG: No nothing was. Now my grandfather, he had cyanide poisoning. No, it wasn't like it is today when they put you into hospital, do all the tests, and fix it. In those days, they found out the problem and operated. 26 major operations, my grandfather had. He had dints in his head, he had holes behind his ears where he had problems, and he still lived to 80.
PS: Tough man!
KLG: Oh, he was. He was an electro-plater, and in those days, they put their hands straight in the bath and that's how he got the poisoning - over in England. When he came to Australia, he got on the land.
PS: But he still had the effects of the poisoning.
KLG: My grandfather and grandmother were reasonably well-off when they first came out to Australia, but (there were) no hospitals like there is now - you couldn't go into hospital and say: Look, I'm sick and they'd look after you. You had to pay for it and it broke them. And then when the Depression came, as I told you before, that's when they lost their poultry farm.
PS: That's really interesting stuff! We don't realise what things were like then. We think things are tough now, but things were tougher then, even if you had a bit of money.
KLG: If you didn't have any money, you were in real trouble. And my grandmother used to cook meals for him to take into the Royal Melbourne - that was the old Royal Melbourne, not the new one. I don't know where the old one was. Then my grandmother got sick - she had pernicious anaemia and she was in Prince Henry's in the late 30's. Mum and Dad went in there......
FLG: On their wedding day, Mum and Dad called into the hospital to see her. There was no cure then.
KLG: She was one of the first they cured. They were expecting her to die. She lived to 94. (Laughter)
PS: He started the business basically. Where did he work at?
KLG: He worked from home. First of all at King St. - they had a Californian Bungalow style house. He had part of the front lounge room and he used to sit at his bench and look out the window and he was quite happy in there. And then we moved down to Vine St. When I started working with him in '61/'62 when the credit squeeze came, and I had always done watches and clocks. I didn't do an apprenticeship because I don't like watches - they bore me to tears. But when the credit squeeze came, it was a bit hard to get work then. Dad had a bit of work and asked me to help him out and get rid of all the clocks for him.
PS: You were still working from home in Vine St? So, you learned off him. Did you ever do any training? RMIT had a course I believe.
KLG: Yes, they did. I was a fitter and turner, tool maker and cutting and all that sort of thing, so I came to it from a different way. Basically, it's still mechanical.
PS: You are doing it in miniature! With some of the repairs, if you had to make up parts, you would be using different tools.
KLG: You see, during the war and for quite a long time afterwards, you either had to make something or adapt something to do it.
PS: You mean you couldn't get the parts.
KLG: Yes, getting parts was really hard and they still are - they are worse now. One of the chaps in the City - someone was having a bit of a pick about Dad and me - and he said: “They have to be good because they don't buy anything off us.” We got along really well with Ray - every now and then you would have to buy parts, but a lot of them Dad would make up. Dad was an excellent watch maker - he could do stuff that guys today wouldn't have a hope of doing.
KLG: One of the chaps who taught Dad and me - he passed on knowledge to me. Mr Coke, an Englishman, and he was a watch maker. He could make a watch or clock right from scratch. The only thing you can't make is the main spring..... you could do it but it is very difficult to get the rolling right and get your widths right. He did a lot of work for the SEC.
People bring in a pocket watch and say to me: It kept perfect time and I ask them how they know that, and they say: My grandfather said it did. And I asked them How did he know · And they said that he would listen to the radio and get the beeps! This is in the 1930's, and no beeps on the radio. The story I was told by Mr Coke was that, during the war he did chronometers. He had to have the time right twice a day. They would put the beeps on the radio, but every time they were out - by 5 or 10 seconds. Five or 10 seconds for a chronometer could be 100 miles when you were at sea. I think it was 11.00 in the morning and 10.00 at night they were dead right. I was talking to a chap a little while ago and I said it was so the Germans and the Japs weren't able to use our beeps and he started to laugh. He said: “To tell you the truth, I was a surveyor in the Army and we didn't worry about (the radio pips) - we used the Japanese ones.” (laughter)
PS: Well, that sounds better than Sydney. I don't think they do it any more, but they used to fire the gun at 1.00. And, of course, there is the Time Ball at Williamstown - that was for seamen.
KLG: That's another story. One of the other guys I learnt a lot from said that on Friday all the office boys were sent down to Station Pier and they all had a pocket watch, and they would look across to Williamstown and they fired the cannon (from there). And as soon as the smoke came out, that's when they set their watches. And then they would come back and set all their clocks.
PS: I remember being on Pinchgut - whatever the name was of the little island in Sydney Harbour. And they still do it - I was very lucky - I was there for a birthday party for a friend and they let her fire the cannon. Only these days they do it electronically - they don't use gunpowder. That was a birthday treat she had.
KLG: Actually, one spot that they do it, and I think they do it every day; my grandfather was born in Guernsey and they fire the cannon from the castle at 12.00 every day there. They come out all dressed up and stand there..... I've got it on tape somewhere when they are firing their guns.
PS: Okay. When did you take over the business from your father?
KLG: Never did. His business was his business and my business was my business. I never worked for Dad. I would never have worked for him. We got along extremely well....
PS: But you kept it separate. You started your own business.
KLG: When I started doing the clocks for Dad, David Link (the watchmaker 's stand in Blackburn) - he and Dad got along very well together. He was a watchmaker too and he walked across and said: “What are you doing, Keith?” I told him I was doing clocks for Dad, and he said: “I've got a pile. Would you get mine out of the road too?” And I said: “Oh yeah, okay.” Watchmaking is a funny game. You can have all the degrees in the world and anything, in those days if you walked into a watchmakers and said I'm doing clocks or watches or whatever they wouldn't have a bar of you. They wouldn't want to know you. Dad had a friend in the City - Billy Biggs - he worked for one of the biggest wholesalers and Dad was telling him what happened to me - I was looking for a bit of work when it came round - and, next week, I had half a dozen jobs. As soon as someone came in from up this way, Billy sent them to me. That's how I picked up a hell of a lot of work in those days.
PS: You also worked in the same house and I guessed you moved out at some stage.
KLG: I went by myself - Dad had the original little shop built - it was actually a barber's.
PS: Where was that?
KLG: Whitehorse Rd. It was owned by Roy Trewartha and Dad came back day and said that Roy had a sign up and was closing his business and going to sell the shop. I went flying up there and said to Roy that I was really interested in buying it and Roy said: “Okay, it's yours. You're the first cab off the rank.” I had a bit of trouble getting money and Dad went down to his bank and even though I nearly had enough money for the deposit, for some reason they got a bit huffy on it. Dad told it in his bank - I think it was ES&A then - they started fiddling around, and he said: You've got your choice. Either I close my business account with you or..... And that's how we got it.
FLG: It was on the shake of a hand as far as that was concerned.
PS: That's how things were done in those days. So, this was about 40 years ago?
FLG: 1970.
PS: 43 years ago. You've got the thing on the shop window....
KLG: The bank manager said to me: “Get the deposit, get everything signed and get up there.”
But I said I couldn't insult the man. He was real touchy on it. I said: “No, we've shaken hands.” After (Roy) got his money he said his nephew would have bought the shop but he was a bit too late. So, we got it off Roy. It was a shop and separate dwelling behind the shop.
FLG: And we extended it in 1977. There was a two-storey dwelling at the back and we extended over and closed in what was the courtyard and the front part the same size as the shop. We lived there for 17 years.
PS: So, let's get the dates right. So, you bought that in late 1970.
KLG: It was settled probably Feb. '71 just before we were married.
PS: Then you extended it and lived there for 17 years which would make it....
FLG: We moved out in 1988. The reason we moved out, back in the late 70's when the disposable society sort of hit us, we found it affected people buying clocks and watches - it changed the scene for us. Because we had always been security conscious of other people's property, we started up a security business with a partner who eventually moved on. We had two businesses for about over 20 years - we had One-Stop Security and the clocks and watches. We stopped selling watches and concentrated completely on clocks and repairs and did the security as well.
PS: When you say security business, was that secure storage or security patrols?
FLG: No, No! not patrols or storage. We sold equipment, we serviced alarms and we installed.
PS: You were prepared to take on extra staff for that I can imagine. Installations would have taken you away from the shop.
FLG: We had an office......
KLG: That's where the throw-away society came in and they wanted the latest 'whiz-bang' clock that ran off a battery etc. But it is changing now, but I'm getting too old for a lot of the things... I just plug along nice and slowly now. If you were starting off now, you could make a reasonable business because people, especially in this area, we still have a lot of Jack Elmore's houses and that style of house - it's no use putting something modern into it because they don't look right. People are looking around all year: I need a grandfather clock, or a mantel clock or something like that. So, they are swinging around to that...
PS: And if they get one of those, they need maintenance and repair.
KLG: In my opinion, they are making the quartz clocks and watches to last only a certain amount of time.
PS: You can't get replacement parts anyway. I remember having a very nice Citizen watch. My father-in-law had a very high opinion of Citizen. It 'carked' it and it went into one of the official places in the City - in Russell St. I think, and they said: I'm very sorry. We can't get those movements any more. It was 15 years old.
KLG: I reckon they are designed for 10 to 20 years. Under law, the moment they stop making a particular design they have to keep parts for, I think, it's 5 to 10 years. Over in Japan, they dump it - just bang, into the sea. It's gone. It's time to buy a new one. That's their attitude.
PS: You can't make parts for those things like you could have made for the old hand watch. I think it's a pity. I like mechanical things. I'm not very good at fixing them, but I like them. Old machinery particularly whether it's cars or guns or whatever - it's interesting. Particularly in the old days, there were so many different things.... People were very inventive - they got different ways of achieving the same result. Some of their mechanisms are so ingenious.
So, you haven't got that security business any more?
FLG: Rules and regulations, trying to rein in the problems that were in the (security business) e.g bouncers etc. It really covered everything and we were at that stage when we were doing less and less installations as Keith was getting older. We decided that that was it; so, we sold that part of the work. By that stage, the pendulum had swung the other way, you could say, and people were discovering old clocks and having them restored. Keith repairs the movements and that but, we also have a service - someone who does the clock cases, somebody who does the dials if the dials need to be redone. So, people have discovered that these old time pieces were of interest and of value.
KLG: What happens too - I had it last week - was that a very good friend - his granddaughter was going through some of this stuff and found an old clock. She's getting it done up because the house in Laburnum St. is designed for it. She's as happy as anything because she has this clock.
PS: Actually, I did a clear-out a while back. I had some clock cases and I sold them on e-bay to a guy in Tasmania. The cases and the face were quite good and if he picked up a movement from somewhere - if he got an Ansonia movement which would have suited it - well, Bob's your Uncle!
FLG: Yes, we've done that with a few bits and pieces on e-bay. Just some cases someone wanted who have got the movement to go with them. Better in their place than ours!
PS: I wasn't going to do anything with it, and the case was in good nick, so I was very pleased with that.
You went basically back to your business as a specialist clock maker and repairer.
KLG: Yes, we've got a watchmaker that does watches for us. We have worked together for 4 years.
PS: So, he doesn't work in the shop there with you.
KLG: No, he's got his own place. In the old days, you could do watches and clocks on the same bench but nowadays, especially with a lot of the watches,.....
PS: All electronic. Different sort of machinery all together.
KLG: Not only that. Clockmakers are more... untidy than a watchmaker. A lot of watchmakers keep their benches absolutely tidy. Some of them don't, but the clock makers - you can't do it, you've got to have stuff all around you.
PS: Now, about the other things in the Blackburn area - not only were you a long-term business man but you were involved in the Blackburn Chamber of Commerce then. Can you tell us a bit about business in the wider Blackburn area? What you remember about that because you would have seen lots of changes.
KLG: Where's that paper that Dad did? The one....
FLG: He wrote down years ago how many and what sort of businesses there were. I can remember just in my short time, we had two or three dress shops in Blackburn, there were two shoe shops. Rita Louise was very well known locally in Main Street, the 2 shoe shops were in South Parade - Varley's had been there for years which is now the Station House cafe, and the other one was ?? Mac's? (I'm not sure) and it was probably where Barry Plant Real Estate is now. Prior to that, that was where Raftis was - the grain store.
PS: Yes, we have photos of that store.
KLG: Yes, Hazel ran that for years.
FLG: I remember that. It was still going when I came to Blackburn.
CG: Is this the Blackburn Village? There was Ansteys (?) on the corner.
FLG: Where Cellarbrations is now.
KLG: At one stage he had three shops in Blackburn. He had one in Chapel St. if I remember rightly. His main one was in South Parade. The other one was where the Fighter Factory is as was Prior's Hardware. Then when Edgar Anstey moved out, Prior's took over the whole lot (where the Fighter Factory is now). Originally it was only just a little narrow shop; 20 foot front.
PS: Was he related to Doug Prior.
KLG: They were brothers. The old boy, he was a bit of a character. He was a Justice of the Peace. You would take in there to be signed, he would read it. He wasn't supposed to but no one could stop him, he would still read it! (Laughter).
FLG: There were three self-services as they were called. There was one in Blackburn Rd. - I can't remember if that was Nancarrow's or what. Then there was Ansteys in South Parade. There was a third one on the corner of Gardenia St and South Parade where Stockdale and Legge are, there was Moran and Cato.
PS: Three old ladies in Blackburn Rd. were telling me about Moran and Cato and they couldn’t remember when it closed, and they actually thought it was where Cellarbrations was.
FLG: No, that was Ansteys.
KLG: There was another one where the Fighter Factory is before Edgar took it over. Mollie Brown's husband worked for them. During the depression, he lost his job and my Uncle Jack lost his job at the brickworks. Mr Brown was a member of our Lodge - the Blackburn Masonic Lodge. Somebody there - you know the old story - you look after your mates - and they got him a job there. I've forgotten the name of the shop. He worked there for quite a long time.
FLG: Mollie Brown lived on the corner of Vine St and Railway Rd so virtually opposite the neighbours of Keith's parents.
KLG: Before that, she lived in Chapel St where the lane goes up to the Leader and those shops. She lived on one of the corners and she had one daughter. Have you struck Johnny Vickers yet?
PS: No, no.
KLG: Johnny Vickers - he's an old Blackburnite and he knows more than anybody. His phone number might be in the book.
FLG: He had the newsagency in the Kerrimuir shops and then.... didn't he have the newsagency in Springfield Rd. just near the corner of Surrey Rd? Near the car wash is - there was a newsagency there.
KLG: He went to Park's who had the one down in Blackburn. He knew a lot of people because of working in Blackburn.
PS. Oh that's right. It only closed a few years ago.
FLG: When I came to Blackburn for instance - this is a story I've told time and again - Keith's mother, Rita, took me for a walk down to the centre and introduced me to Michael the greengrocer at the roundabout in Railway Rd. and took me over to Cecil Prior, the butcher, and over to the Chemist - Boyd Fox in South Parade where Tom (Golopoulos) is now. So, she introduced me to all the shopkeepers in the area. It was a real village - and I always said to my boys that you can't do anything in Blackburn without someone knowing about it or finding out. And it's quite true - even now. The grapevine works.
KLG: We used to go up to North Blackburn - it was all farmland and orchards in those days - we went up there this stinking hot day, and we decided to strip off and go for a swim in this dam. But Mum was standing on the doorstep waiting for me when I got home. “What were you doing swimming in that dam?” How the hell did she find out? Just like Faye said - you were seen!
PS: That area in North Blackburn is quite interesting. When I was talking to the Manager of the Centre, she was saying that there was a big Italian population when it started - they had meeting rooms for the Italian people in the area and everything.
FLG: Where that Michel's Patisserie, that was a Community Hall there.
PS: Ah right. She didn't say where it was but she did give us some early photos of the shopping centre under construction which was really interesting.
FLG: I'm sorry they changed it from Old Orchard. I still refer to it as Old Orchard - that's part of the history of the area.
PS: They didn't change the name of the school - why should they change the name of the shopping centre?
KLG: In the early days, Williams Rd. only went down to the creek. It didn't go through to Springfield Rd. The original person who owned the house - on the bend in the road, that was owned by the Williams. He was the Primary School teacher up at Blackburn. Ron Pearce owned all the land. When he sold it, it was divided and changed around.
PS: He had the land on each side of the current Williams Rd. - so the Shopping Centre and the High School?
KLG: His last house was right down on the west side and that's where his land finished. And they built two or three more houses there. It must have been in the '60's.
CG: When I was living in Lake Rd, on the corner of Lake Rd and Lake Rd - which is now Forest Rd., there was Mr Eckhardt's orchard. We used to play in his bush behind the orchard Eckhardt's Bush. In the front of the house which I think was called the “Fairy Cottage.” Does he mean Rose Cottage on corner of Halley St.? - I saw a picture of it and it looked like Eckhardt's house.
KLG: When I was a kid, the people used to say the Lake was an old quarry. But it's not. Uncle Jack Henwood was there when they did it. He said what happened was that people would come up (to the creek) and couldn't get across, so they just built a road and dammed it in. That's why it's like it is now. People say that It's so deep and all that, but it's not as deep as people think. ....... ?????we put his boat in there and went screaming up and down....
PS: I think originally the orchardists used it as a reservoir. That was part of the reason they built it. The actual boundaries of it, that's something else.
KLG: Yes, we used to go and pinch some fruit out of the orchards. We used to pinch fruit out of an orchard on the corner of Goodwin St and Whitehorse Rd. There was a cherry orchard there.
PS: Yes, that's where I live. On the corner, there is Nunawading Motel. And next to that, that was all part of the Stacker's orchard. There is still one of the family still living in the area. They had a lot of land and it certainly went to Goodwin St., and they gradually sold parts of it off. The last bit - the 16 units were built there (I live in one) which they build in 1984. But I don't think the orchard had been run as an orchard for some years before that. They were getting pretty old and I think the father had died; the mother was still around and she lived with one of the sons there in Whitehorse Rd. But that whole area - right up to Nunawading Toyota just about - that was their orchard.
KLG: Right at the very end, before you get to Toyota, the Stacker's orchard....
PS: The Stacker's were originally called Stecher.
KLG: The Stacker's we knew - there were about 10 or 12 in the family and they lived on the edge of the orchard - it was a big family. The father worked with the railways opening the gates down here in Blackburn.
PS: There was another one who was a timber worker - I don't know if he was a carpenter or worked in a timber yard. He's still in Justina St. His older brother just sold his house last year - it was fronting on Whitehorse Rd. It was next door to the last part of the orchards which is where my block of units is. They were over in Box Hill too - they were all over the place. I think the mother was Mavis, and I think the father was George but I could be wrong. He bought the land in the 20's I think.
KLG: He used to come in here - an insurance guy. They were behind the Stacker's. Haven't seen him for ages.
FLG: You mean the tall thin man? The one who we used to see at the Post Office every now and then. I can't remember his name either.
KLG: Most of them were a bit older than me. It's the same as down the bottom end – they owned the place next door to where the IGA Blackburn is - Ivy Meehan. They were big builders in Blackburn.
FLG: They actually quoted for the extensions for the shop. We had about 3 or 4 quotes including the Meehan's. And their price was the dearest and I said “Keith, does that include the swimming pool on the third floor?” (Laughter).
PS: Can I just go back a little. You said your mother was working for A.T.&T. in the dispatch department. When was that?
KLG: She went their '41 or '42 and worked there 13 years into the '50's. She then came to live with us to look after me while Mum was working and she stayed with us until she died. Mum had to look after her for the last couple of years.
FLG: She had dementia.
KLG: They called it hardening of the arteries in those days.
KLG: I went to school at Swinburne Tech School.
PS: When you said you did engineering after that, was it the degree course?
KLG: In those days what was a degree?
PS: No, in 1908 they had the tertiary studies and they had the TAFE for the certificates.
KLG: No, the course I did was an apprenticeship course. Not through the TAFE. Joan Kirner went and buggered that up.
FLG: No, don't get political!
KLG: Well, she did. I've got a cousin - he's mad Labour and I'm mad Liberal. And we have argued....
PS: Nobody can argue that the TAFE had the rough end of the pineapple for years and it’s getting worse. It's appalling.
KLG: We argue all the time about it. One day he was giving me a lecture on things and I said “Look what happened to you” . . . because he was a school teacher. “What do you mean?” he said. “You got the sack. What did you get the sack for?” He said: Oh yeah, I haven't forgiven her yet for it.” Because she closed down all the Tech schools.
PS: The worst decision they made in education for years.
KLG: In those days, you did primary schooling at Blackburn State School, then I went down to Kew Central, and then did 3 years at Swinburne. I went from there and I had a job as apprentice fitter and turner up at Watson and Sons which were part of Watson and Victor which were part of the big X-ray firm. You used to go to school once a week for a whole day and not only did they teach you what you needed to know about fitting and turning, drafting and all these sort of things but they taught you how to do a letter, do a report and all these other things. Now, you've got to do Year 12 or you don't get anywhere. That's the biggest lot of baloney that I've ever heard. We were taught those things going through apprenticeship. And the kids' people are putting in, especially boys at 18 - I wouldn't employ one, they’re useless - all they are interested in is their girlfriend and their car. You see them on a Monday morning and you might as well tell them to go home again because you know they are not going to be able to work.
PS: As far as I'm concerned, the old apprenticeship system, although it had its faults, it turned out the best tradesmen. These days, to my mind, industry is not taking its full responsibility for training of the people they say they desperately need. And don't get me started on 457 Visa's....... (Laughter). We are getting off the subject Keith.....
KLG: No it isn't off the subject really because this is part of how we were brought up and trained. And the training that we got was good training. If you get a boy of 14, 15 or even 16, you have a hope of moulding him into the sort of tradesman you want. You get a lad of 18, 19 or 20 - they're useless. It's too late and they don't do any good. The only hope is to get them at 30 and they decide they want to become an apprentice then. We have had quite a few mature aged apprentices.
PS: But it's quite difficult for anyone of that age to get into an apprenticeship.
KLG: You ring up any electrician, plumber or whatever in the Yellow Pages and ask them to take on an apprentice and they will laugh at you. I'm as bad - I've only had one person that I’ve trained in all that time.
PS: There are a few things going against that because kids these days will not go on apprentice wages - they see their mates doing relatively dead-end jobs and they are earning good money. They are spoilt.
KLG: You are right.
FLG: Going back to the teaching – Keith probably said it to you when you came into the shop, but the things he learnt from his father's knee and at Tech, are the things that he still uses nowadays. I'm the same. I went to a Girls High School over at Preston - the choices weren't that great in the late 50's, early 60's. You either became a nurse or a teacher, a secretary, or a hairdresser - they were the basics. So, I went for a secretarial course which has stood me in really good stead in all my working life and led me down a lot of paths. I can remember one of the teachers had actually been a secretary so she taught us from a practical point of view. And, like Keith, the thing I remember her for and the things she taught me - I still use today.
My greatest bugbear is that I would love to get into education - into the English side of things and teach people how to spell, how to use apostrophes, how to use grammar correctly....
PS: It's all part of good communication....
FLG: The teachers can't teach because they weren't taught properly themselves, whereas we were taught to love the language and treated it with respect. And unfortunately, it’s not treated with respect these days.
PS: I can only agree with you. The two best English language teachers I had - one was an ex­ Herald journalist - I think he was a sports writer and was he good! He changed my views on Shakespeare (in fact I didn't have any views on Shakespeare before Form 4!). They love the language and they know that it's not only a matter of communication, it's a thing of beauty - it affects the way you think and communicate.
FLG: The Blackburn Primary School was started in 1889 and Keith was on the Centenary Committee in 1989. It was a fantastic Centenary celebration weekend and, on the Saturday, I remember standing there at all the festivities etc. and I remember seeing this smartly dressed woman and she was sort of looking at me and waving. I thought “She does have a familiar face, but I don't know that I really know her.” I realised the old classic - she was actually waving to someone behind me! But it was Nancy Cain the Premier's wife. Her grandfather was the first principal of Blackburn State. I never knew that till that day.
PS: And you won't get me to say anything bad about John Cain either no matter what side of politics you follow (laughter) - or Rupert Hamer.
FLG: Tell the story about your father and Swinburne too.
KLG: Dad went down there before he went into the centre. It was wartime and they were training people to be fitters and turners and electricians because they needed all these people. When I would go into the City with Mum, Dad would sneak out. In those days on the corner of John St and the lane running down beside the railway line was where the engineering shop was. When I first went down there, everything was belt driven. It wasn't long after that, it was changed so everything had its own motors. In the early days, we were back into the real dark ages!
PS: Well, some of the workshops were still in commission when I was there - the old blacksmith...at the back of the Admin building and next to the Art School.
KLG: Well, Scottie Ferrier, he was a great guy. I still remember how something comes through your head - how things have changed. There was only 12 in a class in blacksmithing. On this day he was on the phone and he asked the boys to be quiet. A couple of boys started to play up and he walked out and said: Quiet boys, or else..... Anyway, they still kept playing up. He lined the whole twelve of us up, we got half a dozen of the best. I used to go in after I'd finished my lunch and we would mess around with things and as I was walking out, I said: “Well, I supposed this finishes it!” and he said: “That was this morning. Forget it! Make sure they'll never do it again and tell everyone else what happens (if they do).” Nobody ever played up again.
PS: As I think I said to you in the shop, they were fantastic teachers. A lot of the lecturers in the tertiary colleges were ex-tech. school and that helped.
KLG: Half way down Williams Rd was a chap by the name of Whitworth and he was an English teacher down at Swinburne. He moved from Swinburne and went somewhere else. But he was one of the best. His nic name was 'Rubberneck'. He would be standing there and go 'Clunk' and he would catch you every time. You had no hope of beating him.
That was another thing that happened. You had two schools - the girls' school and the boys' school. And you weren't allowed to fraternise - when the girls moved through the yard you weren't allowed to move. And one of the girls came from Lilydale and a couple of boys from Scotch or Xavier or wherever were giving her a hard time. She asked if a friend who was in the school could accompanying her home. We all went home together and we had to front up to our headmaster and headmistress to get permission to escort her home. We were told “If anything happens, you are in trouble.” How things have changed!
PS: We have in our archives the old school magazines and things like that. They were very much like school magazines generally but a few things crept through and you had an idea of a few things that were going on. That's gone because the library was built on the basketball courts. If you have driven along Burwood Rd. recently, you will see what else has happened - keeping the front of those old shops and many stories hid behind them.
How did you come to get involved in the Chamber of Commerce, Faye? Were you the last one standing or did you have to kill a few people to get a spot there?
FLG: No. (Laughter) I think it was about 1989-90.... I don't know.....curiosity, perhaps -­ wanting to know what was going on in the area....I just got involved and slowly, slowly.
The Blackburn Chamber of Commerce is one of the oldest continuous chambers - if not in Australia, certainly in Victoria. It started in 1948. There might be some other chambers that might have been older but they haven't been continuous. It was very active - liaised with Council as we still do now. I guess not everybody wants to be involved e.g., on a committee, but I always seem to say yes! I'm going to stand down this year - 23 years is long enough and let someone else - some new blood - come in. Plus, we are retiring and the time has come.
PS: You didn't mention that!
FLG: Oh well! We still will be around. The phone number will still probably be available.
PS: Do you mean you are just down-sizing or are you going to sell the business?
KLG: We are going to sell the shop. I've got a little room out the back.......
PS: You will still be doing a bit of work from home.
KLG: I won't be doing a great amount but I'll just do enough to keep myself happy.
PS: You have got great skills and you like doing it.
KLG: Most watchmakers... if they are still alive....e.g. Ken Ross is over 80 and still has his shop going.
FLG: Keith's father was 80 when he finally stopped doing watches.
KLG: It's not heavy work or anything.
PS: The only reason my father-in-law stopped was that he died! Seriously, he died in the doorway of the shop. And he loved it! Obviously, he had been doing it all his life since he was an apprentice and he loved it. And he also liked the people. He wasn't a great chatterbox but he enjoyed talking to the customers and the clients, and he had been there a long time and knew a lot of people. But he loved the work.
KLG: I get people.... It seems to have swung around. I didn't used to get many old people from Blackburn, but lately, just every now and then, someone comes in....
Ivan Lowe. That was who I was trying to think of. His father had the Newsagency at one stage. He was about 2-3 years older than me. He had a bad accident a few years ago on a motor bike and he lost his leg. I can't remember the circumstances of it. But he came into the shop a little while ago.
I'm the only one who lives in this area from my school days. Ian Williams' father was a plumber in Blackburn and he worked for his father and he's retired now.
FLG: Lindsay McCurdie, he's down in Geelong now.
KLG: Ian and Lindsay were in the same class together.
FLG: In 1949 you were in Grade 6. Well, 1999 they had their 50 year reunion. They even had their photo taken and tried to replicate (the Grade 6 photo). You never got your Grade 6 photo - you only have your Grade 5. Don't know what happened to it. They positioned themselves in the same order as the Grade 5 photo. There were a few empty spaces.
KLG: There was 50 in the class.
PS: Yes, they were big in those days. I remember my Canterbury State Classes.
FLG: There were some well-known names. Ian Spicer in your year - he was something to do with the Unions or in the 'opposite side'.
But going back, I'm ten years younger so our classes weren't 50, but we would have had 40 sometimes in our classes. I don't know whether it was a different style of teaching, but we learnt. We learnt by rote - they might poo-hoo it these days, but that's how I remember things.
PS: That's how I remember my times tables.
FLG: And how many times a day do you use your times tables? Countless times.
PS: I'm not good at Maths but my Mental Arithmetic is okay thanks to....
KLG: They pick out of the class - one of the girls had become a doctor, and a couple of them had got into a bit of trouble, but most of us have done reasonably well.
PS: I've kept in touch with mine - we had a school reunion a couple of years ago. The girls wore a hell of a lot better than the boys! The good looking ones were still good looking.
Can I get back to the area and get more general. A lot of people went to church and they met their mates there. Church tennis clubs on weekends. And dances. What do you remember about the social life? I want to have a few headings:
1) Social Life
2) Physical environment including housing and traffic and that sort of stuff.
3) You have mentioned a number of people but I'm sure there a few characters in the area, and prominent people.
We'll start with the social life. What was it like living here as far a social life went - you and your friends.
KLG: In the early part, you stayed within your area. About a half a dozen of us lived in King St and Ceylon St (which was called ??Simmel St in those days) and we all stuck together and we walked to and from school together. And like all boys, we all had our fights and we always seemed to be at one another's throats. But it was all fun in those days.
Once I went to Swinburne, I drifted away from the area friends. We went our different ways. A lot of the boys went to Box Hill High and others went to Box Hill Tech. The main things were that we had the old 'bughouse' where the library is - that was a picture theatre.
PS: So that's where it was! I remember vaguely when I was a kid that there was a theatre in Box Hill but I never knew where it was.
KLG: There were two in Box Hill. The other was on the corner of Watts St., and the other one was in the centre bit.
PS: We won't talk too much about Box Hill because that's on the other side of the road!
FLG: The theatre on the site of the Blackburn Library - that's what you are talking about.
KLG: That was called the 'bughouse'.
PS: I thought that was Morton Hall. They used to show pictures there and they also used it for other things too.
KLG: It was a big hall. I worked there. Ron Toll had it - he used to be an Estate Agent and was in a few other things - he had a restaurant down in Kew. Mum used to run a girls’ gymnasium on a Thursday night. At that stage we were showing Cocker Spaniel dogs. We won the Royal Show one year. I used to take the dogs for a walk all the time. My job was to come up to the Hall and walk the girls home. They had a boxing club there and there were dances there. (a photo of his Auntie Marge at one of the dances there).
And I used to help with the films. I was usher and general dogs-body around. One of the boys from our class - he was the operator (I've forgotten his name).
PS: Can I just interrupt. One of our speakers this year at Historical Society was to speak on cinemas in the area. He would be very interested in hearing your recollections of Morton Hall. There was another film showing place on Springvale Rd - above the liquor shop. The building is still as it was, but it's a long time since they have shown any films there.
KLG: I don't remember that one and I worked in Nunawading.
PS: That was just down not far from the railway line. The liquor store near the railway line either just north or just south of the railway line. (KLG: Peter, it would have to be north and I think it was pulled down when the railway went underground. And I don't remember it being two stories). That was a cinema in the 20's. He's a cinema historian and he'd be very interested in Morton Hall but had to put off his talk to the Historical Society for one reason or another. He's scheduled for December. Would you be happy if we put him in contact with you? (Yes says KLG). He would be very interested in it because there is no documentation about that.
KLG: The hall was probably built in the 20's.
PS: That would be right because it was named after TRB Morton and he was still around in the 20's still trying to flog off the land that his Development Company owned.
KLG: A couple of the boys decided that they didn't like the hall and they tried to burn it down. They saved it.
The hall was funny - when Blackburn Lodge first started, originally, they were going to the Temple in Box Hill and then they came back to Blackburn. To use the hall there.
Grand Lodge made them fill the whole of the walls with sawdust so no sound could get out. So, when the pictures came along, they were quite happy because nobody could peek through and see the film from the outside. We built our own Temple in Clark St.
PS: People used to come great distances to go to dances there. People from Ringwood and whatever - some of the stories we've got about a local having a horse and cart and he would take a whole lot of girls home from the dances at Morton Hall. What else in social and recreation?
KLG: Blackburn in those days was very clique-y: who went with whom, who you mixed with. That's why I cut loose from the area. I was down at the tennis club and was politely told by one of the girls that I wasn't really welcome. She came from the same side of the track as I did.
PS. Seriously, what were the lines of demarcation?
KLG: They just thought they were better than us. Her father worked for the government. That was pretty good.
PS: In Camberwell when I was growing up, there were a lot of Public Servants and my mother used to call them Two Bob Millionaires! They thought they were good but a lot of them were just clerks.
As you say - clique-y but any particular thing? The office people looked down on the trades' people? The commercial people...
KLG: Very much so. When Auntie Edna came to see Auntie Marge down in Allandale Rd, and she would talk to anyone. She would stop and talk to anyone when she was walking along - she was great at it. She got to know this plumber who lived down near the creek (Allandale Rd. stopped down by the creek in those days). She was talking to him and she said: “You don't look very happy” and he said “I've had a gut full of these two bob millionaires around here. They think they are better than me and I can buy and sell the whole lot of them.”
(Laughter). That's what it was - it wasn't the money; it was more the social standing. Dad worked for TJ Heime (?) the printer of the Recorder (?) in Blackburn and ? Paice(?) was the ex-mayor of Nunawading, and Dad was in the Lodge in those days. When he was Mayor, they had the big Ball and the whole thing. Dad and Mum got invited to the Ball and when they walked in, one of the girls went up to Mr Paice and said “What are the Le Galle's doing here?” And he had to speak “My friends!” When his will was being read out, he left Dad some shares. The family were real snaky on it and they went along and saw Lindsay Yuncken (a local solicitor) and they said they weren't happy about Dad getting money in shares etc. and they said they were going to fight the will. And Mr Yuncken said that if they fought it, he would fight them every inch of the way. “Dad's getting his money.”
PS: This is really interesting. As you probably know, the Whitehorse Historical Society used to be the Nunawading one. It's based really in Mitcham because it started with the restoration of the Cottage. That seems a totally different scene. They were much more ... working class, I guess.
KLG: Mitcham has always been working class.
PS: It was when I was a kid. I had a friend there who we used to visit occasionally but that's all I knew about Mitcham. I don't think I knew anyone in Nunawading. But none of this sort of thing - that sounds more like Camberwell!
FLG: It still operates a little like this today - not so much, but maybe up to a few years ago. Were you born on the right side of the tracks?
PS: I thought these days the Bellbird area brought a lot of the yuppies in and I thought the composition had changed a lot. I've only been here 16 years so I'm only a newbie.
You've been here a lot longer haven't you Chris?
CG: In and out of the Blackburn area.
PS: You reckon you were outside a lot of the social bits around churches etc.
KLG: I used to go to the Church of England but I don't believe in Christianity. I believe there is a Supreme Being and someone who guides us, but as far as Christianity concerned, it's a no-no for me.......... (Discussion - not included).
PS: You weren't in that Church and club community.
KLG: The Church was a meeting place for people.
PS: Most people were far more interested in the dances etc. than they were in the services. The young people went to play tennis. Some of them took it seriously particularly the girls in their teens, but not for that long. Some stayed in the Church but some were more serious than others.
KLG: The Roman Catholics in those days - you weren't supposed to mix with them. They were another group. It wasn't as bad in Blackburn between the religions didn't seem to effect (who you socialised with) until you had a school. Once you had a (church) school, the Catholics had to go to the Primary. St Thomas' wasn't there in those days. The site of (present school/church) was I think the home of a family whom I think were Swedish. When it was sold and the Catholics asked to buy it. But the owners refused to sell it to the Catholics. So, what they did was get someone to come in a buy it and then they sold it on to the Catholics. They couldn't put a caveat on it - it just didn't work. They started building the Church and School.
Across the road on the corner of Wolseley and Central Rd., the old priest went across and said “I want to make you an offer for your house. I want to use it for parking - we are running short of parking.” But the owner said: “You will never get this land. Not while I'm alive. I won 't let the Catholics own this land.” And the priest said: “When you're dead and I'm dead, we have still got someone who will buy it.” (Laughter). They don't want it now. They built the church first. They own a heck of a lot of land around - more land than people realise.
PS: What about sports and stuff around the area?
KLG: You had your football club. Mum was the Social Secretary or something for the Football Club. I wasn't a great lover of football. I remember one of the ?Eve? boys was trying to kid me into joining the football club and I nearly joined. But one Monday morning and he was getting ready and I said to him: “What happened to you?” and he said: “I got bounced at football and I'm going to be off work for about 6 weeks!” I took one look and I said “No, you can keep your football.” So I kept away.
That's when Mum and I went into breeding and showing dogs.
I used to do a lot of game shooting in those days. I had a friend down in Leongatha - Charlie who came from Koonwarra. Once I got a car I was down there at least once a month and we would go out shooting or I'd be helping him around his farm - the whole deal.
CG: What about things like Boy Scouts?
KLG: I was only in the Cubs for a little while and I missed three meetings. And they told me that once you had missed three meetings, you were weren't allowed back again.
CG: I remember that rule!
KLG: It was at the school reunion, and Jack Keaty's wife, the Cub Mistress and she said: Why did you give away Cubs? and I told her and she said: If I had only known, I would have had you back... Mum didn't ask me - she was in her own little world with a lot of those things so she didn't pursue it. I probably wasn't the best Cub in the world anyway.
FLG: But both of our sons both went to Cubs. The youngest one went into Scouts but didn't follow it through. But our oldest went right through - he is a Queens Scout and he's giving back and he's a Scout leader at 2nd Blackburn.
PS: It's interesting how people often gravitate back to the same area. I should have asked - how many children have you got?
FLG: Two boys - Nicholas and Christopher. Nick's the Scout enthusiast. His daughter, our granddaughter, is in Cubs and going up to Scouts later in this year.
PS:....... (noise on CD) And they learn a few things. On his first divvy, my young Matthew learnt not to pitch his tent over a creek bed! (Laughter) During the night it rained, and he had to take shelter with his elder brother who was not very welcoming. It does teach you a lot of skills and they have a lot of fun - even if some of it is cooking chocolate bananas over a campfire! Ugh!!
FLG: Loves it, loves it. It's wonderful what they do.
KLG: Where it's great too is that even when they were 15, 16, I could ring Nick or Chris up and say “Be ready in an hour; we are going somewhere.” And their bags would be packed and they would be all ready. Faye packed Nick's stuff at one time and when they came home, he threw the pack into the corner and said: “Never again. I'll pack my own pack next time.”
PS: The Scouts are terrific. I think that's how my eldest son got into hockey because some of his Scouting mates were in the Camberwell hockey club and he's been there ever since.
KLG: Chris, the youngest one, it wasn't his cup of tea. Going back to the tennis club: in my day it was very cliquey, but when he went down there, things and the people had changed. He did quite well down in the tennis club.
PS: Now, just about how things have changed. Obviously traffic is now hideous and they are building huge houses on little blocks, but what about the physical changes that you have noticed over the years. What have you observed and what do you think about it?
KLG: I don't like the way Blackburn's going and the Council are letting some of these buildings go up. It's taking the character away. Blackburn was a nice little village and you had a village atmosphere but now you are losing it to a big extent because you are allowing these monstrosities.
FLG: There are less houses and more apartments. Because it's a transport hub with the trains and the buses, and they allow those transport hubs to be more built up with those apartments.
PS: The oldest part of Blackburn is the Crescent. Some of the places they have got in there have ruined the streets entirely. As far as I'm concerned - I'm two streets away from Whitehorse Rd. There's a proposal for 6 storeys where Nunawading Motel is now: Three blocks of 6 storeys in that land including a next door house. They backed off and brought it down to 4 storeys. I don't think it's gone to VCAT yet but it will. The Council don't like it but they can't do much about it. And that is ridiculous - it's half way between Nunawading and Blackburn station, and it's going to muck up one bus route and it's going to increase the traffic around. Of course, they apply for reductions in parking - they always do that. Any residential pockets near Blackburn Station are going because they have re-zoned the land. I was working at ARGS for about 10 years. You know the apartment buildings that are going up in that street. I think any private residence in Chapel St. and any of those streets along, they will be gone in a couple of years.
FLG: The thing is with those - something has got to happen. They either fix them up because they look like run-down tenements.
PS: They have been let to run down because they are all rented out. You can't do much about that part but I can understand around the transport hubs - okay, fair enough. It's happening in Mitcham, not so much in Nunawading. But they are mucking up the residential streets - I don't mind too much the upper storey additions. But these new buildings are so vast, they are out of scale.
FLG: Even in Vine St where Keith's parents built which our son bought after his grandfather died, he sold that nearly 3 years ago. They wanted to put about 13 apartments on that block. They took possession two years ago in July, and nothing has happened so far. It will happen eventually but they, at the Council perhaps, are making it difficult. Keith's father took great pride in a brick fence with a lovely hedge which he kept trimmed and beautiful. Apparently, the hedge has to be kept. I don't know about the fence, but the hedge is. A couple of the trees were to be preserved - I don't know why. Ted and Rita were great gardeners. They loved their garden - their flowers, full of camellias, and the biggest lemon tree I have ever seen, and they had a lovely vegetable patch down the back....... I don't know what significance there is to the trees... but the same thing’s going to happen there as is happening elsewhere. There will be anywhere from 8 to 10 to 12 whatever built on the block.
PS: Less open space, less greenery, less peace and quiet for that matter for the traffic always increases because of greater density.
FLG: I don't know, from the point of view of knowing your neighbours, what it's going to be like living in one of these places. It's probably a complaint of a lot of areas - most people work these days, men and women, and it's not like it was. I grew up in Regent in Preston and we lived in the street, we played in the street. The streets were never empty of kids. But it's a different era, different time for kids these days - they aren't allowed out in the street in case someone takes them.
PS: You don't even see them in the local parks much, although there are tennis courts near me and they are usually well patronised. They aren't in the streets - probably crouched over a computer.
FLG: Hopscotch, we played our version of tennis. But I guess whether we like it or not, 10 or 20 years from now it's not going to affect us, and people in the area are probably going to be quite happy living where they are, possibly not knowing or not interested in the history.
PS: You have a very good point. They won't know what it was like so they won't know what they missed.
FLG: Going to the Chamber (of Commerce) - when I first came here, a lot of the shopkeepers lived in the area so their interest was not only in their business but in the area as well. Whereas, if you look at the mix of shopkeepers now, there are very, very few that would live in the area. There are a lot more Asian and Indian shopkeepers who maybe don't have the same feel for the place as we do. They don't seem to get as involved in civic events, whereas when I first joined the Chamber, we had a meeting on the corner of Railway Rd and Station St (it used to be Carinya (?) Lodge, the reception place) and it was full and everyone wanted to be involved. There was a lot of interest and a lot of involvement. (Now) trying to get people to come to meetings or committees (is difficult). We are not the only ones who are suffering...
PS: People are a lot more mobile. Can you think of anyone in the area who is 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation in the area?
FLG: Keith is first (Dad was born in Newport), then Nick and Aisha (?). So that's three generations. Dad was only 10 when he came to the Blackburn area.
PS: It's the same in Mitcham. I noticed that particularly when I joined the Historical Society 15 years ago, I thought These people have roots here, for sure! Apart from the inter-marriages between e.g the orchardists’ families and all that.
KLG: My mate Charlie Buckingham - I got to know him when his wife Edna worked with Mum at the Australian Tesselated Tiles and she lived in a little street running down to the railway line opposite Australian Tesselated. You didn't come in off Mitcham Rd, you came in down this little street. There used to be a lot of houses down there and Charlie had family down there - they were Henchberger's.
Mitcham was a working class town so you didn't pick a fight in Mitcham. (Laughter) They were tough! Blackburn was pretty tough too. Lynch used to own the pub - and it was a wild pub there (??Blackburn or Mitcham?). Ralphie Stewart, my mate, he joined the police force and he had a mate from Port Melbourne who came out to see Ralph. It was 6.00 closing and I said to Ralph, Whatever happens, if you see a fight start, don't try and join in. Just put your glass up there and run! Well, a fight started and he was all ready to go and Whack! Out.
Every night, when they changed it around a bit, they used to have a Saloon Bar up the front facing along Whitehorse Rd. where the pokies are now. It was totally different too. Every Saturday night, these two guys would get in there. I had a go at one of the chaps that I knew there and I said Why the hell don't you do something about them? They said I’m not going to touch them, they spend money here!
FLG: What about your mother? She had to sit outside because they weren't allowed in the hotel at all.
KLG: They'd sit in their cars or whatever it was outside because there was not anywhere to sit inside.
In the workshop, I've got Benson and Hedges tins which I got off Dad. He got them from a woman who smoked the B&H cigarettes. The old red tins. We have one from the Queen's visit in 1954.
Lynch was a real bugger of a bloke.
PS: Well, you would need to be pretty tough to run a pub, and you don't want to partake too much of the product!
KLG: There is a photo similar to that... it has a little boy standing in it..... that was my father. Looking south in front of that shop......
FLG: The other thing with Auntie Edna, when they lived in Holland Rd and she was a little girl......
KLG: if my grandmother wanted something, she would get on her horse bare-backed and ride it down and stop outside Pryor's butchers and he would come out, get the list off her, and make it up and she'd go to the next shop and get what she wanted, then ride home. And at night time they would get the jinker ready and she'd come down and pick up Auntie Marge and take her back. At the bottom of Main St., where the creek was, if it rained too much Auntie Edna would take Auntie Marge and a couple of others across there and come back and pick up anyone else who was there so they didn't get their feet wet.
PS: Is that the part of the Creeklands creek?
KLG: Where Gardiner's Creek comes through now. That used to be just a dip.
Where Blackburn Rd. runs into Canterbury Rd you have a road that runs straight ahead. Originally that was the road. They made it meet about 1938.
PS: Was the south part called Baker's Rd or had that been changed?
KLG: I don't know. One of Dad's mates gave him a tip and told him to buy the block of land on the corner of there because they are going to run the road through there. Dad didn't have the money or didn't know how to organise anything so he told Jim Leckie who was our landlord. Jim Leckie went straight away and bought it. He made a bundle out of it!
Further up on the corner of Walsham Rd or Eustace St, Tommy Hyen had his printing works there first up. He worked from a shed at home.
PS: Quite a few people did that. Elmore had his timber yard behind his big double block where he lived.
KLG: Dad tells the story - he had a really good cattle dog. One day the dog wasn't there any more - gone! Dad was a bit upset about it all. But 4-5 years later, there was a mob of sheep coming down the road and this dog was there. It walked in, walked around, and had a look and walked out again! It was the dammed dog! It knew exactly where to come into. It walked in and said hallo and he went with his sheep again. They never knew whether he had been nabbed or took off on his own accord. It always fascinated Dad that a dog could do that.
PS: We've kept you talking for nearly 2 ½ hours - I think we'll have to come back. Thank you both very much.